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France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

bbc.com

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Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#151

Post by giraffe_lady »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #128
giraffe_lady wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People on this part of the world have been killing each other for a good 3000 years or so. This is a really nasty way to dismiss it imo. It explains nothing but just assumes the conflict is inevitable. What, is the land cursed? Are they bloodthirsty barbarians who can't do anything else? No, there are specific grievances in the recent past and ongoing. This is not some mythical blood feud with its origins lost in h…

It is a lie that Israel was founded on an ethnic cleansing hiding the fact that the Arab league wanted to wipe out all Jewish settlements. Just like it happened in other Arab countries at that time and just how they want to do it today. War erupted which Israel won and hence their claim to the land. They did not ethnically cleanse anyone, in many cases they even bought the land, which I have never seen in a similar c…

Man what do you want to call the forced removal of an ethnic group from a geographic area so they can be replaced by another one? Ethnic cleansing has been the accepted term for this for a couple generations but I'm flexible on nomenclature here as long as we agree that the forced removal happened.

If we don't agree that it did then we literally cannot have a conversation across this boundary on this subject. I also don't see how you can adequately explain the current situation in the region when you deny this part of its history but that's your problem I guess.

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#152

Post by wtfwhateven »

mvdtnz wrote: post #148
wtfwhateven wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please read the guidelines at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html before commenting.

You should read it yourself, and compare it to your awful posting history.

There's nothing wrong with my posting history, nor are your personal attacks acceptable or relevant to this thread.

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#153

Post by fzil »

invalidname wrote: post #135
fzil wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

funny how you only care about israeli babies. are the palestinian babies too brown for you to empathize with?

That's nonsense. I care a lot about Palestinian babies as an Israeli. The Hamas is the reason they are at risk. Anyone who wants to support the Palestinian people needs to understand that the biggest obstacle to a Palestinian state and liberty is the Hamas who is conducting a Jihad. It doesn't care about Palestinian lives and considers them casualties in a holy war. I think the bombings are terrible and don't help th…

> I think the bombings are terrible and don't help the Israeli cause one bit. But I can't really blame the leadership here. After watching the photos there's a rage going on here which is exactly what the Hamas wanted.

Funny how I could use the same logic to defend Hamas.

I think the shootings at the music festival and attacks on other civilians by Hamas were terrible and don’t help the Palestinian cause one bit. But I can’t really blame the Hamas leadership here. After watching the violent dispossession of Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem and incursions into the al-Alqsa mosque there’s a rage going on here which is exactly what the IDF wanted.

But if anyone actually defended the attacks on Israeli civilians they would rightfully be called terrorist sympathizers.

So, I’ll hold you to the same standards. Do you stand by your words? Do you think that the Israeli leadership is not be blamed for the hundreds of dead infants and thousands of dead kids? Does the genocidal IDF have no responsibility for telling a million+ Gazans to leave their homes or be bombed to dead? Do you support the ethnic cleansing of Gaza?

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#154

Post by invalidname »

fzil wrote: post #153
invalidname wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nonsense. I care a lot about Palestinian babies as an Israeli. The Hamas is the reason they are at risk. Anyone who wants to support the Palestinian people needs to understand that the biggest obstacle to a Palestinian state and liberty is the Hamas who is conducting a Jihad. It doesn't care about Palestinian lives and considers them casualties in a holy war. I think the bombings are terrible and don't help th…

> I think the bombings are terrible and don't help the Israeli cause one bit. But I can't really blame the leadership here. After watching the photos there's a rage going on here which is exactly what the Hamas wanted. Funny how I could use the same logic to defend Hamas. I think the shootings at the music festival and attacks on other civilians by Hamas were terrible and don’t help the Palestinian cause one bit. But…

> Funny how I could use the same logic to defend Hamas.

Nonsense. The difference of intentionally executing babies and children and kidnapping civilians should be stark. Shame on you.

Unlike the Hamas Israel tried to have a peaceful solution multiple times. Including a Palestinian state. They are not fighting for their people, they are fighting for their god, it's a war for the purpose of death not liberation.

> incursions into the al-Alqsa mosque there’s a rage going on here which is exactly what the IDF wanted.

Just like the Palestinian people are divided so are we. The IDF doesn't want anything, its an army. The current government includes people who are terrible racists and they did the al-Alqsa stuff. They are the Israeli counterparts of the Hamas.

I understand that rage and I honestly understood the recent incursions in Jenin, they made sense. They focused on settlers and on the military.

> Do you think that the Israeli leadership is not be blamed for the hundreds of dead infants and thousands of dead kids?

To some degree yes. I do. I think they will need to explain the justification to what they're doing. Unfortunately, Israel never recognized the authority of the Hague court. Also with the weakening democracy in Israel this is even more of a problem.

> Does the genocidal IDF have no responsibility for telling a million+ Gazans to leave their homes or be bombed to dead? Do you support the ethnic cleansing of Gaza?

The word genocide is problematic here. The IDF specifically issued a clearance warning indicating its targets in advance. That's not something you do if you plan to kill civilians.

Calling it ethnic cleansing is untrue at the moment. Even the inflated numbers published by the Hamas don't back that up. Notice that even now the Hamas is still firing missiles onto Israel and I just walked out of a shelter...

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#155

Post by giraffe_lady »

voisin wrote: post #119
giraffe_lady wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that what? They can become a thriving, economically powerful micronation on their doorstep? With better access to the political and military connections necessary to reclaim what they will always consider their land? Why would israel want that? Why would they allow it, if they have the power to prevent it.

Isn’t the deck tilted so much in Israel’s favour (economically and militarily) right now, that Palestine doesn’t need to be oppressed in the manner that it is? Isn’t oppressing the Palestinian people what allows groups like Hamas to thrive? (These are honest questions, from someone with essentially no understanding of the current conflict but is trying desperately to make sense of it and is struggling with obviously…

It's useful to focus on how neither entity is unified or homogenous I think. There are factions within israel that benefit from hamas having power relative to other options. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

A good bit of it is quite simply explained by "they want to do a genocide and this is an effective way of doing it."

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#156

Post by lamp987 »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #134
lamp987 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It’s been widely reported to be true afaik Its been widely reported without evidence existing, which should have been a redflag for anyone with brain. It was just "trust me bro" by the prime minister. Everybody has been slowly backtracking on it over the last 2 days. Including Israel itself: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-b...

And the statement that it would be fabricated should be taken as it is? Doesn't explain the witnesses though.

What is stated without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Israel was being asked about it for days by western media and refuses to provide anything.

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#157

Post by AnimalMuppet »

invalidname wrote: post #154
fzil wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the bombings are terrible and don't help the Israeli cause one bit. But I can't really blame the leadership here. After watching the photos there's a rage going on here which is exactly what the Hamas wanted. Funny how I could use the same logic to defend Hamas. I think the shootings at the music festival and attacks on other civilians by Hamas were terrible and don’t help the Palestinian cause one bit. But…

> Funny how I could use the same logic to defend Hamas. Nonsense. The difference of intentionally executing babies and children and kidnapping civilians should be stark. Shame on you. Unlike the Hamas Israel tried to have a peaceful solution multiple times. Including a Palestinian state. They are not fighting for their people, they are fighting for their god, it's a war for the purpose of death not liberation. > incu…

And note that, when Hamas fired missiles, they didn't issue a clearance warning. Still less when they sent on-the-ground fighters.

Israel causes civilian casualties. Hamas deliberately tries to create civilian casualties. They are not morally equivalent.

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#158

Post by giraffe_lady »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #138
giraffe_lady wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that what? They can become a thriving, economically powerful micronation on their doorstep? With better access to the political and military connections necessary to reclaim what they will always consider their land? Why would israel want that? Why would they allow it, if they have the power to prevent it.

If you are able to get a supply of rockets into your land, you can get anything that allows you to strive economically. Israel also granted them more autonomy which they repaid with terrorism. Do you just deny that fact? The blind blame of Israel is just tiring. They still want all the land and drive out the Jews. That is no basis to found a prosperous nation.

It's not blind I'm not blaming israel for anything israel hasn't chosen to do. No one made them do an ethnic cleansing, no one made them keep its refugees in a blockaded prison city. No one makes them bomb palestinian children and assassinate palestinian journalists. These are their choices and they are responsible for them.

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#159

Post by lamp987 »

invalidname wrote: post #132
lamp987 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

That is not a straw man argument. If anything you seem to be conducting one by focusing on a single detail to discredit a narrative. Children were executed in cold blood. That's a fact. The method of execution is really irrelevant here.

>That is not a straw man argument.

It is a textbook example of a strawman. He is putting words in my mouth that I never said to debunk my post. That is exactly what strawman fallacy means. Lmao.

>If anything you seem to be conducting one by focusing on a single detail to discredit a narrative

Another strawman. I merely pointed out it was a hoax, as briefly and straightforwardly as possible. I didnt say anything about any "narrative" at all.

>The method of execution is really irrelevant here.

It is very relevant when it was explicitely stated. Falsehoods must be pointed out. Relentlessly.

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#160

Post by invalidname »

lamp987 wrote: post #159
invalidname wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not a straw man argument. If anything you seem to be conducting one by focusing on a single detail to discredit a narrative. Children were executed in cold blood. That's a fact. The method of execution is really irrelevant here.

>That is not a straw man argument. It is a textbook example of a strawman. He is putting words in my mouth that I never said to debunk my post. That is exactly what strawman fallacy means. Lmao. >If anything you seem to be conducting one by focusing on a single detail to discredit a narrative Another strawman. I merely pointed out it was a hoax, as briefly and straightforwardly as possible. I didnt say anything about…

They published verified photos of dead and burnt babies. You're grasping on literal straws.
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