France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations • Hacker News Board

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#121

Post by lamp987 » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 4:46 AM UTC

kaycey2022 wrote: post #114

lamp987 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If there was a blockade - how so many weapons got in?" Tunnels. "Decapitating babies." This was fabricated.

Wait who said it was fabricated? It’s been widely reported to be true afaik

>It’s been widely reported to be true afaik

Its been widely reported without evidence existing, which should have been a redflag for anyone with brain. It was just "trust me bro" by the prime minister.

Everybody has been slowly backtracking on it over the last 2 days. Including Israel itself:

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-b...

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#122

Post by singularity2001 » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 5:31 AM UTC

voisin wrote: post #73

Since we’re off HN topic anyways, can someone ELI5 why Israel blockades / occupies Palestinian territories? I would think given the treatment of Jews during WWII that there would be a special desire among Israelis not to treat a group of people poorly based on immutable facts like ethnicity. I understand the hatred of Hamas but don’t understand depriving Palestinian people of medicine and clean water and free movemen…

[flagged]

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#123

Post by theironhammer » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 5:35 AM UTC

Israel funded Hamas. https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-c...

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#124

Post by shemii » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 5:48 AM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #102

Incipient wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People on this part of the world have been killing each other for a good 3000 years or so. It has gone back and forward and there isn't really one correct owner. However they want to do it, rolling into a music festival and shooting everyone really doesn't sound like the right way to fight injustice (perceived or real).

The levels of hate have gone beyond reason and strategy and (it is hard to read my own words but because it's the truth I won't leave it implicit) reached ethnic cleansing and suicide bombing. That is the only way to explain these events and what is openly planned. The united states must stay out. Controlling a city sized pile of collapsed buildings is a nightmarish situation that I do not wish on Israeli conscripts…

In my opinion you shouldn't be worried about that possibility, the presence of the US in the middle east right now is probably just to deter other parties from escalating the conflict. The US has no interest and no intent for entering Gaza, Israel has the resources to deal with Hamas on it's own.

One of the most important parts of this conflict I think which most people here aren't talking about ia the geopolitics in the middle east. Most of this is still just a big old proxy war spear-headed by Iran. All the big terrorist groups and actors in the region wheather it be Gaza-based terror groups like Hamas or Lebanon's Hezbollah are funded and controlled by Iran.

There's a whole Wikipedia page on it, actually: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_proxy_co...

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#125

Post by whatshisface » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 6:12 AM UTC

shemii wrote: post #124

whatshisface wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The levels of hate have gone beyond reason and strategy and (it is hard to read my own words but because it's the truth I won't leave it implicit) reached ethnic cleansing and suicide bombing. That is the only way to explain these events and what is openly planned. The united states must stay out. Controlling a city sized pile of collapsed buildings is a nightmarish situation that I do not wish on Israeli conscripts…

In my opinion you shouldn't be worried about that possibility, the presence of the US in the middle east right now is probably just to deter other parties from escalating the conflict. The US has no interest and no intent for entering Gaza, Israel has the resources to deal with Hamas on it's own. One of the most important parts of this conflict I think which most people here aren't talking about ia the geopolitics in…

Israel has bombed airports in Syria only a few days ago. They seem willing to strain the American protection and could little by little provoke an escalation involving regional powers, leading to our involvement. The one thing that could make this catastrophe worse is if America is drawn in.

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#126

Post by shemii » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 6:37 AM UTC

voisin wrote: post #119

giraffe_lady wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that what? They can become a thriving, economically powerful micronation on their doorstep? With better access to the political and military connections necessary to reclaim what they will always consider their land? Why would israel want that? Why would they allow it, if they have the power to prevent it.

Isn’t the deck tilted so much in Israel’s favour (economically and militarily) right now, that Palestine doesn’t need to be oppressed in the manner that it is? Isn’t oppressing the Palestinian people what allows groups like Hamas to thrive? (These are honest questions, from someone with essentially no understanding of the current conflict but is trying desperately to make sense of it and is struggling with obviously…

First of all, I am biased to my opinions so take everything I say eith a grain of salt.

Now, you need to divide your concept of thr Palestinian people to (at least) 2 groups or factions, those that live in Gaza and those that live in the west bank. The major difference between these groups is that Israel is the sovereign over the West Bank but disengaged from Gaza about 18 years ago and since it's disengagement, terrorist groups like Hamas have taken control of the Gaza strip[1]. One could have a long conversation about human rights issues in the West Bank but what is happening in Gaza right now isn't oppression, it's a war. You could point out Israel's blockade of Gaza as a form of oppression but it's just a way for Israel to prevent Hamas from accumulating massive amounts of weapons from certain foreign actors[2]. The really terrible thing ia that Hamas's infrastructure is so deeply linked and interleaved with civilian life it's impossible to fight them effectively without hurting civilians (Israel has some measures to attempt to do that[3] but everything has it's limits). Hamas isn't interested in peace and will slaighter their way to victory whatever happens, they are actively hurting both Gaza and Israeli civilians as we recently observed with the cruel massacre. The world will be better without Hamas, it's heartbreaking it has to happen this way.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_G... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_proxy_co... [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#127

Post by invalidname » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 6:49 AM UTC

voisin wrote: post #73

Since we’re off HN topic anyways, can someone ELI5 why Israel blockades / occupies Palestinian territories? I would think given the treatment of Jews during WWII that there would be a special desire among Israelis not to treat a group of people poorly based on immutable facts like ethnicity. I understand the hatred of Hamas but don’t understand depriving Palestinian people of medicine and clean water and free movemen…

I'm a liberal Israeli. The border used to be mostly open. With the Oslo accord the Hamas started bombing civilians (busses, coffee shops etc.).

The wall is a problem but it stopped this. Hamas did its best to destroy the peace that was forming. It found a collaborator in our PM (Netanyahu) who essentially supported them and elevated them so they will fight with the PLO.

The idea was that it would prevent the formation of a Palestinian state. That was always a stupid idea... Notice that this was never "official" policy, this is my interpretation based on his actions.

Right now the specific blockade is fulled by three things:

* Rage - this is something I feel personally as everyone lost someone they know there. It's a small country... When children are murdered it tends to bring out blind rage and indifference towards the other side.

* Fear - Israel survived in a very hostile environment thanks to its ability to instill fear in its enemies. This showed a weak underbelly and Israelis are rightly concerned that anything less than complete destruction of the enemy will trigger an all out war.

* Hostages - There are civilians and children held hostage. The minister responsible for infrastructure specifically said that electricity and water won't be restored until the hostages are returned.

I personally think the bombings are absolutely horrible. I know quite a few Palestinians and my heart goes out to them. There's a mob mentality on both sides and we both lack in leadership. It took 5 days for the MODERATE head of the PLO to issue a very weak condemnation of the attack. On our side Netanyahu is as corrupt as they come. A demagogue of the worst kind. He promised to "flatten Gaza" which is stupid. I don't want that.

The Hamas has been a cancer on the Palestinian people. It murdered more Palestinians than Israel ever did. They believe in holy war and that Palestinian dead will be rewarded in the afterlife. The death of a Palestinian child is just PR for these guys. They are as terrible as they come. Unfortunately, this cancer masticated through the population. I have no easy answered but one thing I think pretty much every Israeli agrees on, they MUST be destroyed completely. Not the Palestinian people, the Hamas. My main concern is the leadership vacuum. The PLO isn't great either and won't want to collaborate with Israel after everything it did... Going back to something resembling the Oslo accord will be hard on all fronts.

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#128

Post by raxxorraxor » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 6:56 AM UTC

giraffe_lady wrote: post #109

Incipient wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People on this part of the world have been killing each other for a good 3000 years or so. It has gone back and forward and there isn't really one correct owner. However they want to do it, rolling into a music festival and shooting everyone really doesn't sound like the right way to fight injustice (perceived or real).

> People on this part of the world have been killing each other for a good 3000 years or so. This is a really nasty way to dismiss it imo. It explains nothing but just assumes the conflict is inevitable. What, is the land cursed? Are they bloodthirsty barbarians who can't do anything else? No, there are specific grievances in the recent past and ongoing. This is not some mythical blood feud with its origins lost in h…

It is a lie that Israel was founded on an ethnic cleansing hiding the fact that the Arab league wanted to wipe out all Jewish settlements. Just like it happened in other Arab countries at that time and just how they want to do it today.

War erupted which Israel won and hence their claim to the land. They did not ethnically cleanse anyone, in many cases they even bought the land, which I have never seen in a similar conflict. Usually it is just taken.

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#129

Post by dang » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 6:57 AM UTC

BasedAnon wrote: post #77

foogazi wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

200 People at a party and grandmothers in their homes

[flagged]

We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines, not just in this thread but in many other unrelated ones.

Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#130

Post by invalidname » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 6:57 AM UTC

giraffe_lady wrote: post #74

voisin wrote: post #73

Since we’re off HN topic anyways, can someone ELI5 why Israel blockades / occupies Palestinian territories? I would think given the treatment of Jews during WWII that there would be a special desire among Israelis not to treat a group of people poorly based on immutable facts like ethnicity. I understand the hatred of Hamas but don’t understand depriving Palestinian people of medicine and clean water and free movemen…

It's not about ethnicity or religion per se. The land israel occupies was taken by force from palestinians. Gaza specifically is to a large extent simply a refugee camp for those displaced to create the state of israel, and their descendants. Both groups have, from their own perspective, a valid and exclusive claim to the land there. If not prevented from doing so, palestinians would certainly reclaim the homes and f…

Not true. Jews purchased many of the lands during British and Ottoman rule. When Israel was formed the Palestinians were given the majority of the territories. They attacked to get the rest and were defeated in a very bloody war.

As a result many fled. Many stayed and are a part of Israel to this day, they vote and have representatives in parliament, supreme court etc.

The Gaza strip and occupied territories were held by Egypt and Jordan. They were occupied in the 6 day war (1967) but Israel never annexed them. Some of the residence there are indeed refugees who prior to the formation of Israel, lived in a different region.

It's also not true that it's not about religion. This is 100% about religion. Jewish settlers are entirely motivated by religion. Hamas is an extremist religious group who believes in holy war and murder of its own people. While Israel is technically a secular country, the religious forces are strong and force us into situations like this.