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Scrollbars are becoming a problem

artemis.sh

471–480 of 944 posts

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#471
I have the opposite problem - I don't want to see scrollbars. I have the touchpad and scrollwheel for that. I don't need anything taking away space from actual content, especially in narrow sidebar menus. A semi-transparent strip visible only while scrolling sounds perfectly fine.

Unfortunately, as the author notes, its not always easy to get this customized.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t a heavy drop shadow solve the window border problem? Although these days those seem to be fading or disappearing as well.

Not when the windows are dark.

I used to have that problem when using xterm: white text on black background. I worked around it by writing a script that gave each new xterm instance a different dark background colour. Each window by its own felt like it was still black but when you put two next to each other you'd notice the difference in hue.

Then I switched to mate-terminal which put a nice big scrollbar in the right-side border of each window, so I didn't need that script any more.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#473

I agree the scrollbar is dying and becoming unusable. A scroll bar needs to be: - Wide, clearly visible and easy to hit. - Proportional sized, indicating how much of the document is currently in view. - Movable parts should have features indicating friction, as opposed to slippy-ness. - With arrow buttons, placed together instead of at opposing ends. - It should change colors to indicate hover and mouse press. Of the…

All of this, with the addition that you should have the option of panning in both dimensions from a single toolbar widget if the document supports it. I've seen that implemented but never with the arrow buttons together rather than at opposite ends.

> - Wide, clearly visible and easy to hit.

Way back in the day, there used to be a field of study called Human Computer Interaction, where people would learn about things like Fitt's Law, and the fact that the edges of the screen were particularly valuable because they effectively had infinite size.

I am on OS X. For my sins, I have MS Teams open. It is hard aligned to the right of the screen. On the right edge of the window is a scroll bar. I shove my mouse to the right, I click to grab the scrollbar (which has conveniently expanded on mouse-over, and now extends to the edge pixels), and... the entire window gets dragged.

I don't know how we have ended up here. There was a period when people were actively researching what made good user interfaces, and it was feeding in to end user experiences, and it showed.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#474
Imho scroolbars are unneeded on computers with properly made keyboards. People are desperate to use scrollbars only when the PgUp, PgDown, Home and End keys are not quick to reach.

This is the real battle to fight for. Vote with your money and stop buying computers with stupid keyboards.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#475

I have come to a funny realisation recently. It's not my eyesight which is becoming worse, it's the UIs which are becoming worse. The tiny scrollbars with laughable contrast are in no way accessible to anyone. I've recently switched to using KDE with the Oxygen theme and it's a joy to use without any eye strain. These scrollbars are absolutely pathetic, with no room for customisation. (good luck theming a locked-down…

> we wouldn't need "dark mode" or the such if the UIs had any contrast and were legible Have you tried dark mode in Windows 11? It turns the entire window bar black, if multiple window bars happen to overlap it is impossible to tell them apart visually. On top of that in some programs it also turns the close/min/max window buttons completely black unless hovered by the cursor! Microsoft should fire everyone at the co…

I use "dark" mode in Windows 11, but it turns the title bar a nice blue shade since I actually went and configured it (it's right next to the mode setting). I actually can't configure the color in "light" mode where it's always white if I recall, though.

The other criticisms are valid though, the last good Explorer UI was Windows 7.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#476

I have come to a funny realisation recently. It's not my eyesight which is becoming worse, it's the UIs which are becoming worse. The tiny scrollbars with laughable contrast are in no way accessible to anyone. I've recently switched to using KDE with the Oxygen theme and it's a joy to use without any eye strain. These scrollbars are absolutely pathetic, with no room for customisation. (good luck theming a locked-down…

If we are talking UI we need to talk about Apple.

The first thin I do on MacOS is turn on the scroll bars. Yes, MacOS Has them set as "Only Show When Scrolling" by default, which is probably the most ridiculous setting.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#477
post #465

The general degradation of GUI usability over the past 10-15 years is honestly the most depressing development in computing. It’s a constant fight to keep things halfway usable, and it seems to be getting worse with each major (and sometimes minor) software update.

> the most depressing development in computing

The really depressing thing is that GUI usability regression isn't the most depressing development in modern computing. Allow me to gesture broadly at literally everything.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#478
post #462

I agree the scrollbar is dying and becoming unusable. A scroll bar needs to be: - Wide, clearly visible and easy to hit. - Proportional sized, indicating how much of the document is currently in view. - Movable parts should have features indicating friction, as opposed to slippy-ness. - With arrow buttons, placed together instead of at opposing ends. - It should change colors to indicate hover and mouse press. Of the…

With arrow buttons, placed together instead of at opposing ends. Huh, I've never really thought about that but it does make sense to have them next to each other instead of at the opposite ends. Wonder why it's so rare to see that, apart from "it's always been this way".

I have to assume the natural question is then "which end?" If you put them at the top and the left of vertical and horizontal bars, they're inconveniently far apart when you want to pan different dimensions. If you put them bottom and right, it's very easy to move the window so they're off the screen entirely. But then that's a problem you have with split controls anyway. It feels like there is no good choice here, and split is on average least bad.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#479

I have come to a funny realisation recently. It's not my eyesight which is becoming worse, it's the UIs which are becoming worse. The tiny scrollbars with laughable contrast are in no way accessible to anyone. I've recently switched to using KDE with the Oxygen theme and it's a joy to use without any eye strain. These scrollbars are absolutely pathetic, with no room for customisation. (good luck theming a locked-down…

If we are talking UI we need to talk about Apple. The first thin I do on MacOS is turn on the scroll bars. Yes, MacOS Has them set as "Only Show When Scrolling" by default, which is probably the most ridiculous setting.

I saw those fat candy looking aqua scrollbars in the linked article and I immediately thought how great OS X used to look and work. Truly sad the mess macOS is now.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#480

Imho scroolbars are unneeded on computers with properly made keyboards. People are desperate to use scrollbars only when the PgUp, PgDown, Home and End keys are not quick to reach. This is the real battle to fight for. Vote with your money and stop buying computers with stupid keyboards.

Scroll bars are a visual indication of how much content there is off screen/window and where I am in it. There are more uses to it than just dragging or clicking it with the mouse.
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