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Scrollbars are becoming a problem

artemis.sh

211–220 of 944 posts

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#211

It's not just scrollbars. It's the elimination of window borders. Aside from not being able to differentiate one window from another similarly colored window in the background, it's nearly impossible to click and hold on anything along the edge to resize the window. It's the overloading of the title bar with so much shit like search boxes and extraneous buttons that a user has almost no place to grip to move the wind…

I am coming to the opinion that Windows XP was the maximum usable interface, and we should have stopped there [0]. But then, I might just be old and telling the kids to get off my lawn. [0] this is definitely true for Windows. All subsequent versions of Windows have had worse UX.

I'd tack a few more features onto it, like multiple desktops, and give it a small face-lift to make it just a wee less ugly.

But yeah.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#212
So what? Next thing you know, people are gonna be crying for "accessibility features", like "being able to use computers if you have a disability". Or even worse, normal people asking for changes, just because they want a different (they say "better", but whatever) experience as a user! Who cares if a few million people have a hard time using my app? Works fine for me! And that's what matters.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#213

It's not just scrollbars. It's the elimination of window borders. Aside from not being able to differentiate one window from another similarly colored window in the background, it's nearly impossible to click and hold on anything along the edge to resize the window. It's the overloading of the title bar with so much shit like search boxes and extraneous buttons that a user has almost no place to grip to move the wind…

It's more, there's no attempt to structure information anymore. All the settings menus are a nightmare of lists upon lists and each app has a completely random layout for it's menu-ing, often with links to external sites, for what could be set locally. It is geniunely confusing to try and understand the designers intent. I can never tell if I missed a setting, or if it was never meant to exist in this menu at all. Th…

Flash invented tiny scroll bars

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure it's negligible these days, but there's also the concern of an increased graphics load since you'll have to do an extra pass for the transparency. But I don't want to dive too far into the mindset of "everything must be optimized to the max".

My 0.3GHz iMac in 1996 could draw and resize window drop shadows at 60fps while simultaneously encoding an MP3 without a hitch. It’s seriously inexpensive computationally.

What OS do you think you were running in 1996?

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#215
The unprecedented success of the iPhone is mostly to blame for all of this madness. Too much success can lead to missteps. When you’re selling gazillions of hammers, everything starts to look like nails.

Hiding most of the UI was genius for such a tiny screen with a simple and very limited OS. People loved it. It’s was tremendously empowering, they could finally own a computing device they can understand or at least not screw up.

But a computer has a much larger display and does a lot more. It’s OK for it to show more UI because there are simply more features.

macOS these days is full of tiny things that only appear on hover that would have brought Mr Fitts or even the original Apple Human Interface Guidelines team to tears.

An airplane dashboard doesn’t need to look clean, it should be useful to trained professionals.

We need to swing the pendulum back.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#216
reddit is the worst for this right now

whenever you try to view an image in the browser it no longer allows you to go to the image link and instead redirects you to their wonky image viewer (why???)

i can't scroll horizontally, i can't use the arrow keys to scroll at all, nor page up/down or home/end

i can only scroll using my mouse, and if you need to scroll horizontally you have to manage to find their microscopic scroll bar that sits above an aesthetically displeasing footer to scroll sideways

which is infuriating for large images

and its zooming dysfunctional. on normal websites where you can view large images you can click to the location you want to zoom in, and it ballpark brings you to the right place.

not reddit though. wherever you click zoom it always zooms to the top of the image and its up to you to scroll the entire image on your own

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#217
For those looking to accessibly scroll webpages: if not visually impaired, could I introduce you to the powerful combination of hitting spacebar to scroll down webpages and (in Firefox, at least) hitting the / (forward slash) key to bring up the "quick search" window? From there, you can type in whatever you want to select or bring into focus that you see on the screen. It's a great way to quickly move the focus to another part of the webpage. (If you just hit tab without quick searching first, you'll scroll back up to the last link that was in focus, but by using the / key quick search, you can basically navigate with just your keyboard and the tab key.) While this doesn't help if scrollbars are embedded in a site, if it's a traditional webpage such as the parent article, it works great :)

As a result, while I do have and use a trackpad, I rarely feel like I'm missing scroll bars because I can just hit spacebar (or page down) to scroll down most times. If you need to page up or down on a Mac, it's fn key + up to go up a page, and fn + down to go down a page. Meanwhile cmd + up is like the Home key and cmd + down is the End key, so you can quickly scroll to the top or bottom of a page (or text entry box).

Not to say this isn't a valid article, but there /are/ workarounds to missing visual scrollbars if you absolutely need this functionality.

Admittedly, these workarounds do not work that well on mobile, where I sometimes wish the iOS Contacts app A-Z scroll helper had somehow "caught on" within webpages, to scroll them. We're missing an IDE-style control that helps us "quick scroll" and jump between headings and sections of longer webpages, that's for sure. As the article mentions, I'd be in support of minimaps, but my version of them would look a bit more like the contacts UI, small icons to represent each section that I could click on to navigate to it, and maybe if I swiped left on the right side of the screen it would show me the table of contents in full, with a search box? (Just spit-balling here, but we need more UI innovation and standardization, not less. I really don't think we've found the "perfect" UI, I think we just forget what made old UIs great when we build new UIs... And sometimes we invent greatness: see the Alfred-like Spotlight search box that you can even get on Windows via power tools that lets you quick switch to any application just by typing its name... literally genius, but not something easily available before OS X Lion.)

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#218
post #187
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely agree. For at least 10 years now, my dream has been to essentially recreate the Windows 2000/XP UX as a Linux desktop environment. That said, doing so would basically require creating everything from the ground up, because merely theming some existing toolkit and window manager to look like XP is not at all the point. And frankly, there HAVE been SOME useful UI/UX improvements in the past couple decades,…

If you haven't already, look at xfce.

I did like XFCE at one point, but it never really did quite nail the UX for me. A lot of the problem is more on GTK+2 than it was anything else. (Obligatory mention of no thumbnails in file dialog; I used to patch GTK by hand for this!) Now with newer versions of GTK, this problem has unfortunately gotten worse for me, and I don't really prefer XFCE very much. Worseyet, I've gotten used to wlroots giving me good support for things that never really worked well in X11, and XFCE's plan regarding X11 and Wayland going into the future is still somewhat unclear.

I also tried LXDE and LXQt as well. I actually thought LXQt might be the one for me, but it was a bit buggy and lacked a lot of much-needed maintenance.

Also, although I'm glad Linux developers don't always make a habit of just simply throwing out ideas and code that works fine, it does bother me how antiquated some things have gotten. DBus is the best desktop IPC option on Linux, and that's not really a great thing in my opinion. Likewise, it sucks that most file archivers still work by popening some command and parsing its output, occasionally breaking on edge cases, usually having limited support for the kinds of advanced functionality you'd get in Windows archive tools. I do understand that making actually-good applications takes time, but over the course of the past couple decades it doesn't feel like much progress has been made here. I mean hell, speaking of archive tools... FreeBSD has been working on libarchive for ages and it'll likely be integrated with fucking Windows before it's integrated with common Linux desktops, which will probably mostly farm out to CLI tools like unar and zip directly. This is the same approach, with the same exact problems, that I remember being used as far back as when I started using Linux, in programs like Xfe.

Needless to say... my feelings are complicated.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#219
post #136

I have come to a funny realisation recently. It's not my eyesight which is becoming worse, it's the UIs which are becoming worse. The tiny scrollbars with laughable contrast are in no way accessible to anyone. I've recently switched to using KDE with the Oxygen theme and it's a joy to use without any eye strain. These scrollbars are absolutely pathetic, with no room for customisation. (good luck theming a locked-down…

How old are you? I bet you a pound you're 40, or thereabouts. Trust me, your eyesight is becoming worse...

True, but not relevant and not a contradiction of the comment. Pannoniae says that the empirical decline in usability of software is attributable to changes in the UI and not attributable to changes in his eyes. The fact that changes in his eyes exist is not a refutation.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#220

It's not just scrollbars. It's the elimination of window borders. Aside from not being able to differentiate one window from another similarly colored window in the background, it's nearly impossible to click and hold on anything along the edge to resize the window. It's the overloading of the title bar with so much shit like search boxes and extraneous buttons that a user has almost no place to grip to move the wind…

I am coming to the opinion that Windows XP was the maximum usable interface, and we should have stopped there [0]. But then, I might just be old and telling the kids to get off my lawn. [0] this is definitely true for Windows. All subsequent versions of Windows have had worse UX.

Windows XP couldn't search the start menu.
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