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France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

bbc.com

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Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#51

Post by medvezhenok »

Clubber wrote: post #7
johnyzee wrote: post #6

Censorship is rearing its ugly head again. Can't have the wrong opinions. I feel like this really took off with the Corona virus pandemic, again with the Ukraine invasion, and now this.

Yes, all the people who couldn't imagine the censorship being used against "their team," here it is. It always happens. Censorship is the tool of authoritarians. Fight it in every form.

Mirroring my comments elsewhere:

In an ideal world we would not have censorship, but people would be punished for death threats and violent action. However, most governments do not have the resources needed to enforce such punishment in the scale necessary (in these cases). When the need for that supercedes the capacity of the state to control it, the devil's bargain to censor speech instead.

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#52

Post by hfuyf65 »

medvezhenok wrote: post #49
hfuyf65 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This censorship is in a capital of a western power. We can condemn Hamas AND condemn failing democratic society by not upholding basic freedoms that built it.

The censorship is likely an uncomfortable trade-off. In an ideal world, we would allow speech and carefully police when that speech turns into death threats or violent action. However, state capabilities and surveillance capabilities are not sufficient in the west for the second part of that. So the devil's compromise is to restrict the former (because people who would be motivated to issue death threats or commit vi…

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Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#53

Post by BasedAnon »

Xylakant wrote: post #10
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #4

Doesn't France have constitutionally protected freedom of speech?

No constituional protection is absolute, as they usually contradict each other to at least some extend. The difference where different societies place the focus - the US is strongly in favor of freedom of speech, whereas European states usually are less absolutist about speech.

Godel's constitutional theorem

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#55

Post by BasedAnon »

funcDropShadow wrote: post #25
johnyzee wrote: post #6

Censorship is rearing its ugly head again. Can't have the wrong opinions. I feel like this really took off with the Corona virus pandemic, again with the Ukraine invasion, and now this.

No, democracies have to have limits what they tolerate. Killing civilians just because they have a certain religion is incompatible with western values. The limit should be too not be tolerant with people that are not willing to provide the same tolerance. By that standard celebrating the killing of civilians we shouldn't tolerate.

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Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#56

Post by BasedAnon »

seryoiupfurds wrote: post #23

Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. It's like organizing a "pro-German but not pro-Nazi" march the day after Kristallnacht, with banners and chants glorifying the violence. Nobody is fooled and every normal person with a shred of empathy is disgusted. Watch a crowd cheer for a speaker who says that…

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Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#57

Post by hollasch »

Xylakant wrote: post #10
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #4

Doesn't France have constitutionally protected freedom of speech?

No constituional protection is absolute, as they usually contradict each other to at least some extend. The difference where different societies place the focus - the US is strongly in favor of freedom of speech, whereas European states usually are less absolutist about speech.

One significant difference is the US constitutional assertion that "certain inalienable rights" (notably the freedom to speak) are "endowed by our creator". In practice, this places such rights outside the authority of governments.

In most other countries, rights are constructed and granted at the pleasure of the government currently in power.

It's easy to overlook this philosophical difference as pedantic, but the ramifications are profound.

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#58

Post by BasedAnon »

seryoiupfurds wrote: post #50
inglor_cz wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I want these people to go mask-off." This is something that I want too, and I am surprised by the fact that many people would rather prefer not to know. As if pushing Hamas sympathizers underground would "disappear" them. Western Europe has a huge problem with Islamic radicalism and it should face this problem without any self-delusions.

The good news is that these people are so committed to their cause that they're willing to go to jail for it. From that perspective, it's a win-win. Everyone gets to see them show the world what they are, and then to see them disavowed by society.

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Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#59

Post by stvltvs »

medvezhenok wrote: post #45
jabradoodle wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't what they banned, they banned pro Palestine demonstrations. Not a mention of Hamas.

The problems were not the demonstrations, it was the barrage of death threats against Jews (inside France). Which were linked and exacerbated because of the demonstrations. The demonstrations themselves are acceptable - but the linked death threats definitely aren't, and unfortunately the state apparatus is not set up to deal adequately with the latter.

Can you expand on how the death threats were linked to the protests?

I tend to think focusing on the threats themselves would be the better approach. Having trouble seeing how shutting down protest would help.

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