Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#71

Post by Fricken » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:08 PM UTC

akira2501 wrote: post #36

Fricken wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite the opposite. Automakers passed the responsibility on to people who don't even drive.

> Automakers passed the responsibility on to people who don't even drive. We have roads. They are shared by all users and taxpayers for common purposes. The responsibilities are likewise shared. The available technology changed. We can't expect to force the prior status quo to continue to exist in the face of available technological changes. This article points out that attitudes like your similarly existed at the ti…

Going whole hog with an unsustainable technology is not reasonable, never was.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#72

Post by ghaff » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:08 PM UTC

armchairhacker wrote: post #33

retrac wrote: post #23

Worth pointing out that "jaywalking" is not a universal crime. There are jurisdictions in the USA where it's legal. And it's legal here in Canada. Even the term stands out -- I'm familiar with "jaywalking" but you only use a term for it if it's illegal. We just call it "crossing the street", or "impeding the flow of traffic", depending how you do it. (It's not exactly a free for all: in Ontario there is still a requi…

In Boston (and maybe Massachusetts as a whole), jaywalking is a crime but the fee is literally $1. There was a Boston globe article about this, where some journalist spent his day intentionally and blatantly jaywalking everywhere, including right in front of cops. He didn’t get a single fine.

It does vary. I'm not saying that in cities like Boston and New York, literally no one would ever get a ticket, but people pretty much will take whatever they can get away with for the most part. Historically, West Coast cities were considered to have at least a modicum of enforcement but I expect that's very scattered these days.

So, yeah, there's technically a crime of jaywalking but in practice it's mostly limited to whatever you feel you can get away with absent being run over.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#73

Post by xyzelement » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:08 PM UTC

csswizardry wrote: post #20

As a Brit, ‘jaywalking’ is so alien to me. I once jaywalked in front of a police car who stopped and waved/signalled me across the road! Whenever I’m overseas, crossing anywhere when the road is clear is second nature to me and I have to remind myself not to. Conversely, you can always spot a foreigner in the UK: they’re the ones waiting for the signal at a deserted crossing at 2am.

In the US this is very regional. In NYC, you never weight a light. In places like Seattle (just as one example) and lots of other places, it's considered very rude to not wait.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#74

Post by giantrobot » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:10 PM UTC

zelon88 wrote: post #45

Fricken wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite the opposite. Automakers passed the responsibility on to people who don't even drive.

I've noticed that people who don't drive usually don't have frame of reference of what cars are capable of, and usually don't understand all of the simultaneous requirements that must be fulfilled by drivers. So you get pedestrians who don't understand what the stopping distance of a car is, or pedestrians who don't recognize dangerous situations that they create. In other words, people with driving experience are us…

> In other words, people with driving experience are usually safer, more considerate as pedestrians.

A great example of this is pedestrians in San Francisco. I've never seen more entitled oblivious assholes that pedestrians there. They seem to have no situational awareness and blithely jump out in front of cars. One of my favorite stupid pedestrian tricks is them jumping out from between parked cars crossing without so much as turning their heads to look for cars.

Thankfully I don't have to deal with SF pedestrians very often. The city very obviously hates cars but is decidedly dependent on them existing. The pedestrians there act dumber than a deer in the rut.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#75

Post by talideon » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:10 PM UTC

nerdjon wrote: post #18

stuaxo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other places cars are supposed to stop for pedestrians even on non crossings, in practice the penalties for hitting and killing them are way lower than killing a person in another situation.

Pedestrians should also take responsibility for acting dangerously. To me it's the same if a driver cuts in front of me and then slams on their brakes, there was nothing I could have done about crashing into them no matter how safely I was driving. If a person runs in front of a moving vehicle it shouldn't be the driver responsible if they basically cut the car off. A car can't stop on a dime. Drivers should be held…

If you can't "stop in a dime" somewhere you might expect pedestrians, either the speed limit is too high or you're speeding.

You mention drivers cutting in front and pedestrians running out into the street, but not drivers who aren't paying due attention or who think that amber lights are advisory at best and a signal to speed up at worst. I'm one of those saps who actually crosses at pedestrian crossings even where there's no obligation for me to do so, and I make a habit of counting how many cars run an amber light when I come to traffic lights. I've found that you can guarantee at least one will, even if the speed limit is low enough that they could literally "stop on a dime", and more than likely, you'll get up to three doing the same.

And then there's the number of times I've seen people run reds, including at a pedestrian crossing where I wouldn't be alive if I didn't trust drivers.

So, I'll have more sympathy for drivers when they stop running lights, and until then I'll continue to turn my head towards oncoming traffic when I cross so the driver who might end up killing me has my face seared into their brain.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#76

Post by loloquwowndueo » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:10 PM UTC

retrac wrote: post #35

flockonus wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely not true for Canada as a whole, i know of several people who got jaywalking tickets in BC. Example: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/jaywalkers-c...

Yes, not obeying pedestrian signalling is one of the exceptions. I'd say that's fairly reasonable -- if people cross freely against indicators it messes with the flow of traffic. I've only seen this actually enforced with examples like in the article, outside a busy transit station.

I’ve seen this enforced on an otherwise empty street late at night. Depends on the police officers’ mood. This was in either Vancouver or Toronto.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#77

Post by wil421 » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:11 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #55

tim333 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany does have jaywalking laws though. I'm not sure about Holland which has very low pedestrian deaths.

Only for red traffic lights and marked pedesteian crossings. Everything else is fair game, as it should be. One has to love the fact that in the land of the free one cannot cross a street where one wants.

The land of the free has 50 states with various laws. Luckily mine is freer than most and we have no jaywalking laws. However, the pedestrian must yield to traffic but is allowed to cross when it’s safe. I suppose a city could enforce their own traffic law and make it illegal.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#78

Post by sudobash1 » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:11 PM UTC

mlazos wrote: post #24

cjensen wrote: post #10

The Library of Congress has a great film taken from the front of a cable car in pre-fire San Francisco [1]. It's absolutely terrifying to see how unsafe the streets were. It wasn't just cars either: horse-drawn carts dart in and out of traffic just as cars did, pedestrians cross at-will in front of all vehicles, and at one points kids mess about jumping on the back of vehicles. It's obvious major regulation was neede…

Characterizing that as terrifying is a bit hyperbolic. It looks like Europe in the present day. If cars were moving slower it would be much easier to be a pedestrian safely

I was strongly reminded of the driving in Italy, except much slower (and more horses).

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#79

Post by trothamel » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:12 PM UTC

Note that like most laws, Jaywalking laws tend to make more sense when you read them. Here's the law in New York:

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2015/vat/title-7/artic...

  1152. Crossing  at  other  than  crosswalks.

  (a) Every pedestrian
  crossing a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk  or
  within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection shall yield the right of
  way to all vehicles upon the roadway.

  (b) Any  pedestrian  crossing a roadway at a point where a pedestrian
  tunnel or overhead pedestrian crossing has been provided shall yield the
  right of way to all vehicles upon the roadway.

  (c) No pedestrian shall cross a roadway intersection diagonally unless 
  authorized by official traffic-control devices; and, when authorized  to
  cross  diagonally,  pedestrians  shall cross only in accordance with the
  official traffic-control devices pertaining to such crossing movements.

So what's criminalized isn't crossing the road - it's crossing without checking. Which seems like a good idea to me. Looking on the other side of the spectrum, Wyoming's law is:

  (a) Every pedestrian crossing a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway.

  (b) Any pedestrian crossing a roadway at a point where a pedestrian tunnel or overhead pedestrian crossing has been provided shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway.

  (c) Between adjacent intersections at which traffic-control signals are in operation pedestrians shall not cross at any place except in a marked crosswalk.

  (d) No pedestrian shall cross a roadway intersection diagonally unless authorized by official traffic-control devices.  When authorized to cross diagonally, pedestrians shall cross only in accordance with the official traffic-control devices pertaining to the crossing movements.

Which is similar, except for (c), which only matters when you're close to a crosswalk - and almost certainly, on a busy road.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#80

Post by freedomben » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:14 PM UTC

cjensen wrote: post #10

The Library of Congress has a great film taken from the front of a cable car in pre-fire San Francisco [1]. It's absolutely terrifying to see how unsafe the streets were. It wasn't just cars either: horse-drawn carts dart in and out of traffic just as cars did, pedestrians cross at-will in front of all vehicles, and at one points kids mess about jumping on the back of vehicles. It's obvious major regulation was neede…

More of a meta-comment, but somebody working with AI to upscale/enhance images/videos ought to take a crack at making that picture quality better. Would be fascinating to generate a reasonable audio track as well of what it would have sounded like, especially as cars/motors accelerate, people shout things, etc. Certainly not an easy task, but would be super cool