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Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

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Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#31

Post by lkramer »

cjensen wrote: post #10

The Library of Congress has a great film taken from the front of a cable car in pre-fire San Francisco [1]. It's absolutely terrifying to see how unsafe the streets were. It wasn't just cars either: horse-drawn carts dart in and out of traffic just as cars did, pedestrians cross at-will in front of all vehicles, and at one points kids mess about jumping on the back of vehicles. It's obvious major regulation was neede…

As someone who lives and occasionally drives in London that feels like my daily life to be honest..

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#32

Post by leni536 »

csswizardry wrote: post #20

As a Brit, ‘jaywalking’ is so alien to me. I once jaywalked in front of a police car who stopped and waved/signalled me across the road! Whenever I’m overseas, crossing anywhere when the road is clear is second nature to me and I have to remind myself not to. Conversely, you can always spot a foreigner in the UK: they’re the ones waiting for the signal at a deserted crossing at 2am.

To be fair in the UK pedestrian traffic lights at intersections are absolutely horrible, feels like they are never ever green.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#33

Post by armchairhacker »

retrac wrote: post #23

Worth pointing out that "jaywalking" is not a universal crime. There are jurisdictions in the USA where it's legal. And it's legal here in Canada. Even the term stands out -- I'm familiar with "jaywalking" but you only use a term for it if it's illegal. We just call it "crossing the street", or "impeding the flow of traffic", depending how you do it. (It's not exactly a free for all: in Ontario there is still a requi…

In Boston (and maybe Massachusetts as a whole), jaywalking is a crime but the fee is literally $1.

There was a Boston globe article about this, where some journalist spent his day intentionally and blatantly jaywalking everywhere, including right in front of cops. He didn’t get a single fine.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#34

Post by turtlesdown11 »

sandworm101 wrote: post #2

How quickly we forget history. Horses were also lethal. Look at the number of people killed by horses, either being thrown from them, trampled by them, or run over by carts pulled by horses. Streets were not some utopic garden of pedestrian safety prior to cars. There were no jaywalking rules because society had evolved over thousands of years being rather acceptive of horse-related dangers. When the new device came…

> There were once almost zero regs regarding candles, objects that killed thousands almost daily by fire.

"killed thousands almost daily"...source for this?

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#35

Post by retrac »

flockonus wrote: post #29
retrac wrote: post #23

Worth pointing out that "jaywalking" is not a universal crime. There are jurisdictions in the USA where it's legal. And it's legal here in Canada. Even the term stands out -- I'm familiar with "jaywalking" but you only use a term for it if it's illegal. We just call it "crossing the street", or "impeding the flow of traffic", depending how you do it. (It's not exactly a free for all: in Ontario there is still a requi…

Definitely not true for Canada as a whole, i know of several people who got jaywalking tickets in BC. Example: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/jaywalkers-c...

Yes, not obeying pedestrian signalling is one of the exceptions. I'd say that's fairly reasonable -- if people cross freely against indicators it messes with the flow of traffic. I've only seen this actually enforced with examples like in the article, outside a busy transit station.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#36

Post by akira2501 »

Fricken wrote: post #13
akira2501 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rephrasing the headline for honesty: "Automakers accept the responsibility for the thing they've created and attempt to improve safety outcomes in a patchwork regulatory environment dominated by gridlock and disagreement."

Quite the opposite. Automakers passed the responsibility on to people who don't even drive.

> Automakers passed the responsibility on to people who don't even drive.

We have roads. They are shared by all users and taxpayers for common purposes. The responsibilities are likewise shared. The available technology changed. We can't expect to force the prior status quo to continue to exist in the face of available technological changes.

This article points out that attitudes like your similarly existed at the time and contributed to the apparent delay in creating a reasonable solution.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#37

Post by seanr88 »

tim333 wrote: post #26
sandworm101 wrote: post #2

How quickly we forget history. Horses were also lethal. Look at the number of people killed by horses, either being thrown from them, trampled by them, or run over by carts pulled by horses. Streets were not some utopic garden of pedestrian safety prior to cars. There were no jaywalking rules because society had evolved over thousands of years being rather acceptive of horse-related dangers. When the new device came…

The UK has no jaywalking laws (apart from full motorways) and about 1/3 the pedestrian deaths of the US ( https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/10/10/exactly-how-far-u-s-s... ). There are other ways to do things.

No other country has anything to teach the USA. The USA is unique and special for a large number of reasons and so foreign methods won't work here. If I recall they even drive on the other side of the road in the UK, that will never catch on here.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#38

Post by JWLong »

nerdjon wrote: post #18
stuaxo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other places cars are supposed to stop for pedestrians even on non crossings, in practice the penalties for hitting and killing them are way lower than killing a person in another situation.

Pedestrians should also take responsibility for acting dangerously. To me it's the same if a driver cuts in front of me and then slams on their brakes, there was nothing I could have done about crashing into them no matter how safely I was driving. If a person runs in front of a moving vehicle it shouldn't be the driver responsible if they basically cut the car off. A car can't stop on a dime. Drivers should be held…

> To me it's the same if a driver cuts in front of me and then slams on their brakes, there was nothing I could have done about crashing into them no matter how safely I was driving.

It shouldn't be. The risk to you is much greater if you hit another car, than if you hit a pedestrian.

Addtionally, while you are right that a car can't stop on a dime, speeds have a large influence on the size of coin needed for a car to come to a complete stop. And I think we both know that they are not linear.

Over the decades, posted speed limits in North America have only increased.

https://www.brake.org.uk/files/images/Speed/Infographics/_la...

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#39

Post by wredue »

_aavaa_ wrote: post #30
sandworm101 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the speeding laws. And the red light/intersection/right-of-way laws. And the drunk driving laws. Those laws placed plenty of the responsibility on drivers.

But they did not make the cars inherently safer. A red light does not stop a driver from driving through a pedestrian crossing when people are there. Speeding laws do little for the bikers in unsegregated bike lanes, mere inches away from an inattentive driver.

Maybe I’m just thinking outside of the box here, but how exactly do 3,000 lbs pieces of metal and glass become safer for people crossing the street in an addressable way by auto makers, when it’s the buyers demanding larger and larger vehicles?

On segregated bike lanes, I’m afraid to tell you, cyclists don’t use them anyway, so why on earth should anyone focus on putting them in?

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#40

Post by TacticalCoder »

tim333 wrote: post #26
sandworm101 wrote: post #2

How quickly we forget history. Horses were also lethal. Look at the number of people killed by horses, either being thrown from them, trampled by them, or run over by carts pulled by horses. Streets were not some utopic garden of pedestrian safety prior to cars. There were no jaywalking rules because society had evolved over thousands of years being rather acceptive of horse-related dangers. When the new device came…

The UK has no jaywalking laws (apart from full motorways) and about 1/3 the pedestrian deaths of the US ( https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/10/10/exactly-how-far-u-s-s... ). There are other ways to do things.

Germany always is doing super well in these rankings. Yet 2/3rd of the highways have no speed limit at all. It's of course unsurprising: all cars are driving in the same direction on the highway so head-on collisions on the highways are extremely rare.

Also pedestrian deaths on the highway: the number is so minuscule it doesn't even register.

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