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Europe gives Mark Zuckerberg 24 hours to respond about Israel-Hamas conflict

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141–150 of 166 posts

Re: Europe gives Mark Zuckerberg 24 hours to respond about Israel-Hamas conflict

#141
post #42
post #9

Very few countries have freedom of speech enshrined quite as forcefully as it is in the United States. One really has to wonder where this is going to go? I understand why they want to do it, but once a censorship regime is established it will be very difficult to dislodge. What happens when the next set of elections puts in somebody who uses that power for less than ideal purposes?

The Digital Services Act is about enforcing rules that are already in place. For example, traditional media has always been bound to certain rules. > These are dissemination of illegal content, negative effects on certain fundamental rights (privacy, freedom of expression, prohibition on discrimination and the rights of a child), and intentional manipulation of the services […] Source: https://policyreview.info/artic…

> If enough countries in the EU shift their moral compass and then elect enough officials in the EU parliament and then change the laws and regulations you could say that it's a democratic decision to change the rules.

But that is impossible because the European Parliament constitutionally is not allowed to change the law. You literally cannot change EU law via elections in any way in Europe, which is why it's not a democratic system, short of electing a national party that will simultaneously leave the EU and revert to its own currency in one step, something that is widely regarded as logistically difficult to impossible.

This is a really, really common point of confusion. It's well past time to consider the way the EU names its institutions to be propaganda. The EU Parliament is not a Parliament. Write it out 100 times on a blackboard. EU policy does not reflect the will of Europeans, who aren't even close to being culturally homogenous enough to have such a will anyway.

Re: Europe gives Mark Zuckerberg 24 hours to respond about Israel-Hamas conflict

#142
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> European Commission fits here. Head of commission is approved by parliament as far I know, but commissars are not elected, just suggested by each state governments. The commissioners are appointed by the EC president in consultation with the member governments, and then the commission as a whole needs to secure approval of parliament. This is similar to the process by which parliamentary governments usually form a…

The EU Parliament isn't really a parliament, so that argument doesn't work. If it was really a parliament the Commission would work for the MEPs and they'd be the ones deciding the law. In the EU it's the other way around. The way they play games with words doesn't make it a democratic system, it is however a very effective tool for the EU to muddy the water and confuse people into thinking it has greater legitimacy…

So which part do you see as undemocratic? The parliament is directly elected by the EU populace. The council is the heads of state, which are elected by the respective national electorate. The commission is appointed by those same elected national governments.

Is that appointment process not democratic because its one layer of indirection? It's the same thing that happens for pretty much any minister/secretary in pretty much every democracy. Is the US government not a democratic system because the secretary of state is appointed? Is the UK not democratic because the Cabinet is appointed? Are there any democracies by that narrow definition?

Re: Europe gives Mark Zuckerberg 24 hours to respond about Israel-Hamas conflict

#143
post #61
post #9

Very few countries have freedom of speech enshrined quite as forcefully as it is in the United States. One really has to wonder where this is going to go? I understand why they want to do it, but once a censorship regime is established it will be very difficult to dislodge. What happens when the next set of elections puts in somebody who uses that power for less than ideal purposes?

> Very few countries have freedom of speech enshrined quite as forcefully as it is in the United States. The US now seems to have a censorship regime, but it's privatized. "Harvard student groups issued an anti-Israel statement. CEOs want them blacklisted."[1] [1] https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/11/business/harvard-israel-hamas...

yes harvard students can say what they want, and CEO's asking to blacklist ALSO have freedom of speech - freedom of speech is not the same as freedom from consequences.

Re: Europe gives Mark Zuckerberg 24 hours to respond about Israel-Hamas conflict

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the countries that are being compared to the US are actually good places to live, so the analogy is flawed.

They are worse places to live because of the speech restrictions. I live in the UK.

In your personal opinion. The actual surveyed happiness levels of the average person in those countries' begs to differ.

Re: Europe gives Mark Zuckerberg 24 hours to respond about Israel-Hamas conflict

#145
post #141
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Digital Services Act is about enforcing rules that are already in place. For example, traditional media has always been bound to certain rules. > These are dissemination of illegal content, negative effects on certain fundamental rights (privacy, freedom of expression, prohibition on discrimination and the rights of a child), and intentional manipulation of the services […] Source: https://policyreview.info/artic…

> If enough countries in the EU shift their moral compass and then elect enough officials in the EU parliament and then change the laws and regulations you could say that it's a democratic decision to change the rules. But that is impossible because the European Parliament constitutionally is not allowed to change the law. You literally cannot change EU law via elections in any way in Europe, which is why it's not a…

> You literally cannot change EU law via elections in any way in Europe, which is why it's not a democratic system

You can. EU law is written by commissioners, which are appointed by national governments. You can change the commissioners by changing the national governments, which happens through elections.

Re: Europe gives Mark Zuckerberg 24 hours to respond about Israel-Hamas conflict

#146
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure this "freedom of speech" absolutism is such a good idea. A society needs to put limits on behavior of its individuals to be sane. I support that people can express whatever opinion they have, but not in any way they want.

> I support that people can express whatever opinion they have, but not in any way they want. This is a contradiction and makes no sense. > A society needs to put limits on behavior of its individuals to be sane But lack of free speech and free politics drives societies insane. Look at all the crazy stuff the USSR and PRC have done in their histories, relative to the free speech and very much not insane USA.

> very much not insane USA.

Is that supposed to be a joke or does it just reflect your extreme bias?

You had a failed coup attempt in January 2021; your speaker of the house was just toppled by a few right-wing extremists in congress; government is on the edge of a default every few months; lots of important leaders (Biden, Trump, Pelosi, McConnell, to name a few, not to mention ones that straight up died of old age in office like RBG and Feinstein) are old to the point where one questions their mental acuity, a gerontocracy reminiscent of the last decades of the Soviet Union.

Re: Europe gives Mark Zuckerberg 24 hours to respond about Israel-Hamas conflict

#147
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Very few countries have freedom of speech enshrined quite as forcefully as it is in the United States. One really has to wonder where this is going to go? It leads to an oligarchy as the rich are able to use their money as speech to buy control of the government. Oh wait, you meant the US's free speech laws are a good thing. Maybe the Americans reading this should think about how their opinion on this issue might ha…

Well, we disagree. Our ancestors came here to escape your laws. Your way of looking at government and law led you to two continent wide wars which us free speech and gun loving people had to go clean up for you. And it looks like you're working on your third. The results speak for themselves, your reasons for authoritarianism aren't good enough as far as we are concerned, you're so happy with being told what to say,…

Your ancestors were religious nuts who wanted more constraints on society, not less.

It's not until you get to Enlightenment-influenced thinkers like Jefferson and Hamilton that the whole "liberty" thing really gets a purchase. It's just a shame you didn't have a little more Hamilton and a little less Jefferson in the mix. Then you'd realise freedom is a means, not an end.

Re: Europe gives Mark Zuckerberg 24 hours to respond about Israel-Hamas conflict

#148
post #16

Facebook should just block Europe. 'For your safety from your government which can imprison you for participating in this popular global website, we have blocked you from viewing this page'.

Given the chance that Facebook is a net positive on the world seems pretty low I suspect this would be a good thing for Europeans. WhatsApp would be problematic though since everyone uses it.

There are other alternatives to WhatsApp if they decide to go.

Re: Europe gives Mark Zuckerberg 24 hours to respond about Israel-Hamas conflict

#149
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we disagree. Our ancestors came here to escape your laws. Your way of looking at government and law led you to two continent wide wars which us free speech and gun loving people had to go clean up for you. And it looks like you're working on your third. The results speak for themselves, your reasons for authoritarianism aren't good enough as far as we are concerned, you're so happy with being told what to say,…

Your ancestors were religious nuts who wanted more constraints on society, not less. It's not until you get to Enlightenment-influenced thinkers like Jefferson and Hamilton that the whole "liberty" thing really gets a purchase. It's just a shame you didn't have a little more Hamilton and a little less Jefferson in the mix. Then you'd realise freedom is a means, not an end.

Your ancestors were religious lemmings following the lies of debaucherous authoritarian religious figures claiming to be representative of god. So what? We didn't want to live how you think we ought to. And you still think we should, no surprise to any of us here. Some things never change.

Most of our ancestors came after independence, again, for the freedom, to escape your laws. Very few Americans can trace their lineage back to the Puritans.

We believe we are right about this and you're wrong. It's engrained deeply in our culture. Why can't you just respect other cultures? Why does everyone have to think like you do?

Freedom is an end unto itself.

Re: Europe gives Mark Zuckerberg 24 hours to respond about Israel-Hamas conflict

#150
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your ancestors were religious nuts who wanted more constraints on society, not less. It's not until you get to Enlightenment-influenced thinkers like Jefferson and Hamilton that the whole "liberty" thing really gets a purchase. It's just a shame you didn't have a little more Hamilton and a little less Jefferson in the mix. Then you'd realise freedom is a means, not an end.

Your ancestors were religious lemmings following the lies of debaucherous authoritarian religious figures claiming to be representative of god. So what? We didn't want to live how you think we ought to. And you still think we should, no surprise to any of us here. Some things never change. Most of our ancestors came after independence, again, for the freedom, to escape your laws. Very few Americans can trace their li…

Hmm. I don't suppose you happen to know what a social imaginary is, do you?
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