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A suicide crisis among veterinarians

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Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#291

Post by dan_quixote »

Exuma wrote: post #207
heyoni wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the worst things about society right now is we don’t share the burden amongst ourselves. The dirty work so to speak is delegated to specialists and our hands stay completely clean. I’m not saying pet owners should euthanize their animals but staying there in the room while the vet did their work probably helped, and the article mentions that owners leaving is part of the problem.

One of my favorite cats has a bad tumor and a 3 month expected life span. I found out a few days ago. I’m shattered and the thought of having to be in the room or not is just super depressing. I’ve never lost a pet before or even someone very close to me. I’m scared for how bad it’s going to hurt Part of me (most of me) wants to be there to feel the pain in the deepest way and not bitch out. To be there for the last…

You should be there. It won't be easy, but you will revisit this memory many times in the future. Each time you think about it later, you won't regret being there. You will, however, regret NOT being there. And know that it gets easier.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#292

Post by heyoni »

agumonkey wrote: post #237
heyoni wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the worst things about society right now is we don’t share the burden amongst ourselves. The dirty work so to speak is delegated to specialists and our hands stay completely clean. I’m not saying pet owners should euthanize their animals but staying there in the room while the vet did their work probably helped, and the article mentions that owners leaving is part of the problem.

That is a very interesting view point. Existence used to be cohesive, ritualized, we were all close to and part of every aspect of it. Now it's all industrialized, and it's not surprising that it's dehumanizing to people in charge.

My wife thinks that in time of peace we should require kids that turn 18 to spend a year doing some community service. Somewhere far from home.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#293

Post by gwbas1c »

pc86 wrote: post #91
Fomite wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So one of the things that comes up a lot is that it's not actually that correlated with cost. Most vets I know (I also work for a state school, not a for profit company) are very sympathetic toward very large and expensive bills, and have always been up front about cost in a way that human medicine is not. There's also a myriad of ways they try to reduce bills when they can. The toll is from folks who aren't spending…

The absolute amount of money is irrelevant, it matters what percentage of a person's disposable income it is. $10k is nothing if you making half a million dollars a year and have $200k in credit with no balance, because your disposable income is probably $400-450k/yr. $200 is a ruinous amount of money if you make minimum wage and take the bus to work because your disposable income is very likely negative.

> $10k is nothing if you making half a million dollars a year and have $200k in credit with no balance, because your disposable income is probably $400-450k/yr.

There is no way someone making $500k a year has $400k of disposable income. Taxes will most likely be $120k; and other expenses will take up a sizeable about of that income.

More likely that person will have $100k or less of truly "disposable" income. That $10k vet bill comes out of the budget for a high-end car, or out of the vacation budget, or a landscaping project gets delayed until next year.

This, BTW, is why people who "have money" either buy pet insurance, or put the pet down. Many people who "have money" only have it because they are very careful about what they spend it on.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#294

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #226
Exuma wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my favorite cats has a bad tumor and a 3 month expected life span. I found out a few days ago. I’m shattered and the thought of having to be in the room or not is just super depressing. I’ve never lost a pet before or even someone very close to me. I’m scared for how bad it’s going to hurt Part of me (most of me) wants to be there to feel the pain in the deepest way and not bitch out. To be there for the last…

You can ask your vet for a home visit. Let them pass in a place that they know is safe and loving.

I was wondering about that. I'd hate to make their last hours full of freakout.

I'd most prefer doing the euthanization myself. It feels like something that should be my responsibility.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#295

Post by quickthrower2 »

9991 wrote: post #33
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

> no matter how much they are loved I don't buy it. If their kid needed a couple thousand dollars to live, a lot more people would be able to scrounge it up. If they can't do the same for their pet, maybe they actually do love their pet less ... and that's OK.

Yes of course! Remember most of us have dead animal remains in our fridges. Ethics is a complicated subject!

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#296

Post by julianeon »

oooyay wrote: post #116
candybar wrote: post #24

We can talk about other negative aspects of being a vet, but the primary factor is that they know how: > But that reality of the job can also colour the way veterinarians view human lives – including their own – and for those already experiencing suicidal ideation, it can provide a simple justification: death is preferable to suffering. In a 2021 survey by pharmaceutical company Merck, 12.5% of the veterinarians surv…

I was lucky enough to own a house next to the vet clinic that ended up being my first dogs final veterinarian. Her sickness was very gradual; a boil grew on her neck and started aspirating blood, she became anemic, and somewhat lethargic. I supplemented her diet as the vet walked me through everything I could possibly do and was willing to afford. She gave me her number to text when weird things happened with the cav…

I'm curious, since you mentioned this, and I've never really understood the alternative to euthanasia.

Your vet said to take the dog in when it wouldn't eat for more than 3 days, and you did.

What would've happened if you didn't take the dog in? If you kept leaving food out for it in case it did eat, but expecting that it probably wouldn't.

I imagine the dog would die on its own, but I have no idea of the time frame or what you could expect in that situation.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#297

Post by Nifty3929 »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16
Fomite wrote: post #4

I work in a veterinary school, and it's remarkable to see how worn down veterinarians are compared to my colleagues in "people medicine" (and my comparison group are infectious disease folks - they're not exactly a cheerful group). To be honest, at this point, between how hard it is to get into vet school, the debt load, and how you're signing up for crushing compassion fatigue your whole life, and a career of hoping…

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

This is a very un-empathetic take towards people who spent many years in school, work very hard, and earn relatively little money for their trouble.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#298

Post by lotsofpulp »

ang_cire wrote: post #266
lotsofpulp wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think you should dictate the price of someone else’s labor, and that is less predatory or somehow better than someone being able to price their own labor?

Me myself? Absolutely not. But yes, labor should have some means to be controlled for price, so that people cannot be underpaid or overpaid (as many are).

What is the formula for determining underpaid and overpaid?

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#299

Post by latchkey »

zargon wrote: post #281
latchkey wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which insurance is it? 20000/25=800 800/12=66

I have mentioned it elsewhere in the thread, so I feel slightly uncomfortable mentioning it repeatedly because I don't want be a walking advertisement, but it's Trupanion.

Definitely not an advertisement. For me with my dog there is no $25/mo plan. The lowest it goes is $60.95/mo, with a $1000 deductible.

Trupanion covers 90% after the deductible. A $3k bill would still require me to pay $1300 ($1700 savings), which I could have just saved myself by stocking some money away. $1700/$61=28 months. I've had my dog for more than 28 months and haven't had any $3k bills.

Of course, if my dog has a $20k bill, it makes more sense, but the chances of that are pretty low given how I know my dog. It becomes an emotional decision, which is my point and what they are counting on.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#300

Post by ssharp »

armchairhacker wrote: post #66
makeitdouble wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. I'd argue not having the means to deal with emergency situations would make someone unfit to own a pet. I get that circumstances can change and costs increase, but I also feel too many people assume a pet doesn't cost much or isn't muc…

I agree that people shouldn't adopt a pet unless they have stable finances which are enough to pay for pet insurance and/or unexpected vet bills. Sometimes people's finances change though, and then (assuming it wasn't serious money mismanagement) I think it's cruel to say they should give up their pet. Pet insurance should be front-loaded, so you have to pay a lot the first few months, but if you stop paying you get…

Pet insurance is basically the opposite. Most people get it when their pet is young and the premiums for young pets are reasonable and low. Then, as the pet ages, the premiums go up and up.

And once you have any vet record of anything other than a routine wellness check, you're basically locked into your policy because if you try and switch providers, you'll run into pre-existing condition limitations, which are quite difficult to understand or predict. This is also difficult because not only will your insurance go up simply for your pet getting older, the pet insurance companies are constantly going through rate changes, as they adjust risk profiles for breeds or adjust to vet care inflation. Depending on what state you live in, these rate adjustments could be completely uncapped.

Even if you don't switch, many insurance providers won't write new policies for pets over certain age thresholds.

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