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A suicide crisis among veterinarians

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Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#121

Post by latchkey »

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #109
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

We have pet medical insurance. It’s about $30/month per pet. If you can’t afford medical costs for your pet then your pet will die if something bad happens. Likewise if you take some magical fairy “society owes me taking care of my pet” then you’re going to be as disappointed as if you walk into a Chanel store and demand a free purse. Pets are a luxury, not a fucking right. It’s not anyone’s job to keep it alive if y…

Check what that insurance actually covers and do the math on it, especially over time (and even factor in current interest rates) and considering total coverage along with deductibles. You might think that you're covered, but in reality you aren't.

I couldn't find any insurance that made better sense than just putting $30/mo into a money market account at 5.25%. The way the policies are written, they clearly are there to make money on people who are buying piece of mind comfort over looking at the reality of the costs.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#122

Post by throwaway5752 »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #14
londons_explore wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'd be impressed if the percentage of vets that do drugs is higher than any other similar profession. A lot of people do hard drugs - I've seen conservative estimates at ~12% of the of the adult and teenage population.

There are hard numbers, which the the parent poster has done no work to find or discuss

https://todaysveterinarynurse.com/practice-management/substa... which has these references (https://www.avma.org/javma-news/2015-09-15/putting-drug-test... was particularly useful). It sounds like, even with more access to abusable substances and stress than the general public, it is not wildly out of proportion to abuse rates of the general public.

1. Kahler SC. Putting Drug Testing Into Practice. avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/150915e.aspx. Accessed July 15, 2019.

2. Geller J. Dark Shadows: Drug Abuse and Addiction in the Veterinary Workplace. veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dark-shadows-drug-abuse-and-addiction-veterinary-workplace?pageID=2. Accessed July 15, 2019.

3. Fishell SL. Signs and Symptoms of Possible Substance Use. cliniciansbrief.com/article/signs-symptoms-possible-substance-use. Accessed July 15, 2019.

4. How to Talk About Addiction. hazeldenbettyford.org/articles/what-can-i-say-to-get-you-to-stop. Accessed July 15, 2019.

5. Guidelines for Veterinary Prescription Drugs. avma.org/KB/Policies/Pages/Guidelines-for-Veterinary-Prescription-Drugs.aspx. Accessed July 15, 2019.

6. What to Do If Your Adult Friend or Loved One Has a Problem with Drugs. drugabuse.gov/related-topics/treatment/what-to-do-if-your-adult-friend-or-loved-one-has-problem-drugs. Accessed July 25, 2019.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#123

Post by meristohm »

Fomite wrote: post #4

I work in a veterinary school, and it's remarkable to see how worn down veterinarians are compared to my colleagues in "people medicine" (and my comparison group are infectious disease folks - they're not exactly a cheerful group). To be honest, at this point, between how hard it is to get into vet school, the debt load, and how you're signing up for crushing compassion fatigue your whole life, and a career of hoping…

When I volunteered to walk dogs for a shelter I learned they offered training and support to deal with compassion fatigue. I appreciated that.

My spouse and I had our dog euthanized last year because we did the calculations/justifications and the costs and risks of surgery (likely cancer and organ failure, per the ultrasound) didn't justify keeping our family member alive for perhaps a few more months. The experience changed my perspective about pet ownership/stewardship in general: unless I really need an animal companion or a working animal (e.g. herding), I will never own another pet. I find it a luxury I can do without. I've had three dogs die in my lap now, and that's enough.

Visiting his grave in the back pasture on walks with my young daughter has opened up regular conversations about death, though, which I see as an upside. She was there wfor the funeral and touched his cold ear before we buried him. She asks a lot of questions and often wants the story of our dead dog's later life and eventual death, and after some consideration and kind words to the memory of our dog (I add no religious spin, just that his "spark of life" is gone and his body is being digested by other living beings underground, a fate for myself which I am absolutely fine with), because it feels good to say these kind words even though I am not under the illusion he's listening, we carry on walking.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#124

Post by bb611 »

CommieBobDole wrote: post #93
hvs wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new owner pays for it.

How does that work, though? Is there a constellation of dog-seeking people hovering around veterinary offices that only want dogs that cost $10k and have recently had major surgery? People who are willing to donate $10k to save a dog's life but consider it very important that the current owner no longer have the dog anymore for some reason?

$10k means very different things to people of different socioeconomic statuses, but the new owner took a rinsing to keep this dog alive - german shepherd puppies from almost all breeders cost less than $5k.

Likely the vet simply knew someone with deep enough pockets who loves dogs and was willing to take one for a well above market fee. It doesn't seem unethical to me that person only wants to save dogs they own.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#125

Post by TehShrike »

I grew up on a farm. We lost a couple sheep. We had at least 3 different dogs over the time I lived there. We had a swarm of cats that came and went. We had a baby goat that died from tetanus, that was rough to watch. At least most of the chickens that died were because we butchered them.

Animals die. It sucks, but way less than a human dying.

Maybe life would be easier for vets if their customers had a more temporal view of their animals.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#126

Post by latchkey »

Doe-_ wrote: post #96
GlenTheMachine wrote: post #39

My wife is a vet. One big issue is that most people don’t have pet insurance. But they do have medical insurance. As a consequence they are completely surprised by the out-of-pocket costs of medical procedures. Hip surgery (to pick something at random) is hip surgery, even if it’s for a dog. It still costs thousands of dollars. But a significant portion of the population expects to pay what they would pay for insuran…

I looked into pet insurance. The best cover I could find would have cost me £250/year, and would only cover up to £7500. It cost me £7000 for my cat to spend 2 days in "ICU", nothing surgical, though they did do a _cat scan_ and put him on oxygen. I found the cost of insurance ludicrous given how expensive the vet was and how little the insurance would cover. Granted ICU is expensive, I would still expect there to be…

Exactly this! People think they are spending $25/month and getting full coverage in case something happens, but the reality is that if you have a fairly healthy pet, you're just better off self-insuring and putting that money into an interest bearing account instead.

The insurance companies have done all the math and are counting on you making an emotional decision.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#127

Post by lotsofpulp »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #72
lotsofpulp wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you not see how that would be viewed as insanely predatory? I assume you must be an expert in the cost structure of operating a veterinary practice in that location, at that time, in order to determine a predatory and non predatory price. If you are not, I am not sure how you can make any claim about the prices. >For profit companies should not be involved in human or animal medicine. What kind of quality of li…

Frankly, if a vet can, as a matter of practice, afford to do procedures probono but only if the owner surrenders their pet, it means they are making an absolutely staggering profit from those who are emotionally extorted to pay. That is predatory. I miss the days when vets got into the business to run small practices for a reasonable profit and middle class lifestyle. Few of them wanted mercedes money . It's kind of…

You think you should dictate the price of someone else’s labor, and that is less predatory or somehow better than someone being able to price their own labor?

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#128

Post by AlgorithmicTime »

scythe wrote: post #70
9991 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no matter how much they are loved I don't buy it. If their kid needed a couple thousand dollars to live, a lot more people would be able to scrounge it up. If they can't do the same for their pet, maybe they actually do love their pet less ... and that's OK.

Your child is very likely to outlive you. In fact, to some, this is a major reason to have children. On the other hand, your pet will die in your lifetime, unless you are very old or die unexpectedly. So most people are probably prepared for this emotionally on some level.

[dead]

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#129

Post by zargon »

pandemicsyn wrote: post #99
GlenTheMachine wrote: post #39

My wife is a vet. One big issue is that most people don’t have pet insurance. But they do have medical insurance. As a consequence they are completely surprised by the out-of-pocket costs of medical procedures. Hip surgery (to pick something at random) is hip surgery, even if it’s for a dog. It still costs thousands of dollars. But a significant portion of the population expects to pay what they would pay for insuran…

What's a good pet insurance carrier/plan, that's not just a straight up scam that just cover's the yearly stuff and some select things? Legit asking because with two super active GSD's I'd sign up in a heart beat if I found one.

In the US, Canada, and Australia, it's Trupanion. It doesn't cover routine wellness costs (exams, shots, teeth cleanings). But it covers virtually everything else at 90% with a $250 deductible. No annual limits or lifetime limits. For my cats it costs $30 per month (each).

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#130

Post by kristjansson »

CommieBobDole wrote: post #93
hvs wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new owner pays for it.

How does that work, though? Is there a constellation of dog-seeking people hovering around veterinary offices that only want dogs that cost $10k and have recently had major surgery? People who are willing to donate $10k to save a dog's life but consider it very important that the current owner no longer have the dog anymore for some reason?

For a well-bred GSD, probably. Waits for puppies can be years, and cost thousands anyway. Paying a bit more in vet bills instead probably seems reasonable to the right owner.
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