A suicide crisis among veterinarians • Hacker News Board

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#111

Post by linuxftw » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 4:08 PM UTC

I_Am_Nous wrote: post #61

candybar wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, suicidal attempts are often impulsive, so any barrier (in this case literally) even if it's relatively easy to get around, reduces suicide rates. Here's another study, this time on firearms: https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-owner... > The researchers found that people who owned handguns had rates of suicide that were nearly four times higher than people living in the same neighborhood who d…

I remember reading about how "sticking your head in an oven" was a legitimate suicide method when using coal gas ovens. When people switched to natural gas/electric, the suicide rate dropped drastically: >The switch from coal gas to natural gas also had one unexpected effect. During the ‘50s and ‘60s, about half of the suicides in Britain were by coal gas. By the ‘70s, when the transition to natural gas was complete,…

That could also be explained that everyone who wanted to kill themselves (WW2 veterans) had already done so. Suicides being 1/3 lower in the 70s than the 50's and 60's seems expected.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#112

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 4:10 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #74

lotsofpulp wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That one is obvious due to us knowing the hospitals sell to the government and insurers for much less. As far as I am aware, this does not apply to a veterinary business. The article also says it was $10k for emergency services at a vet hospital, including the aftercare. What are the labor costs of having highly qualified people, presumably in low supply, on call to provide these services? What are the costs of suppl…

The vets that I've been too (minus a non-profit clinic I went to once) absolutely charge outrageous amounts for saline and other things. It's a hard business, so like most time-of-use sales points they take advantage and charge for the convenience. I'm not making a value judgment, just pointing out that it definitely is something they do.

What is definitely something they do? Asking for higher prices in high demand low supply scenarios? That is something (effectively) everyone does.

It is how the world works. It is the mechanism which the markets use to signal more supply of something is needed (or less demand).

If you want me to study advanced biology for 10+ years and then have me work at odd hours of the day and night to be ready to perform surgery, you need to pay up, or reduce the other options I have for earning money which give me a higher quality of life.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#113

Post by loeg » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 4:11 PM UTC

I_Am_Nous wrote: post #61

candybar wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, suicidal attempts are often impulsive, so any barrier (in this case literally) even if it's relatively easy to get around, reduces suicide rates. Here's another study, this time on firearms: https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-owner... > The researchers found that people who owned handguns had rates of suicide that were nearly four times higher than people living in the same neighborhood who d…

I remember reading about how "sticking your head in an oven" was a legitimate suicide method when using coal gas ovens. When people switched to natural gas/electric, the suicide rate dropped drastically: >The switch from coal gas to natural gas also had one unexpected effect. During the ‘50s and ‘60s, about half of the suicides in Britain were by coal gas. By the ‘70s, when the transition to natural gas was complete,…

E.g., Sylvia Plath.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#114

Post by loeg » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 4:12 PM UTC

linuxftw wrote: post #111

I_Am_Nous wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading about how "sticking your head in an oven" was a legitimate suicide method when using coal gas ovens. When people switched to natural gas/electric, the suicide rate dropped drastically: >The switch from coal gas to natural gas also had one unexpected effect. During the ‘50s and ‘60s, about half of the suicides in Britain were by coal gas. By the ‘70s, when the transition to natural gas was complete,…

That could also be explained that everyone who wanted to kill themselves (WW2 veterans) had already done so. Suicides being 1/3 lower in the 70s than the 50's and 60's seems expected.

Coal gas purportedly has much higher levels of carbon monoxide than natural gas, which would be sufficient.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#115

Post by bb611 » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 4:13 PM UTC

samtho wrote: post #98

lotsofpulp wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not see any evidence of guilting. > The incident involved a four-month-old German Shepherd puppy who'd swallowed a skewer and needed emergency surgery life-saving surgery. The cost of the complicated procedure and after care was close to $10,000 – more than the owner could afford. As a last resort, to avoid euthanasia, the clinic offered her the option to surrender the puppy to a new owner who could cover the co…

My partner and I have a number of animals and volunteered at a shelter for many years pre-pandemic. We worked with vets and vet techs and are roughly aware of the associated costs. $10,000 feels high at first glance but consider the size of the skewer compared to a small animal. There is likely damage done to other areas including major internal hemorrhaging which is not super straight-forward to track down completel…

I think your guess here is pretty much spot on.

TFA links another article explaining the $10,000 bill is a combination of $3,000 of completed tests the original owner had already paid, the surgical procedure, and aftercare costs.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#116

Post by oooyay » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 4:13 PM UTC

candybar wrote: post #24

We can talk about other negative aspects of being a vet, but the primary factor is that they know how: > But that reality of the job can also colour the way veterinarians view human lives – including their own – and for those already experiencing suicidal ideation, it can provide a simple justification: death is preferable to suffering. In a 2021 survey by pharmaceutical company Merck, 12.5% of the veterinarians surv…

I was lucky enough to own a house next to the vet clinic that ended up being my first dogs final veterinarian. Her sickness was very gradual; a boil grew on her neck and started aspirating blood, she became anemic, and somewhat lethargic. I supplemented her diet as the vet walked me through everything I could possibly do and was willing to afford. She gave me her number to text when weird things happened with the caveat that "the time" was when she wouldn't eat for three days. That day came after her 10th birthday, around Christmas time. I laid there in a room they had prepared and cried a lot with her. When the vet came in she cried as they delivered Euthasol. It was over in seconds and everyone in the room just cried for a while, people slowly left and they told me I could have as much time as I needed.

I cannot imagine doing that six times a day. You're not only having to watch a creature die, a creature whose personality you've observed, one that you've fostered good health in, but you often have to walk the human through delivering something out of this world. Being there with someone or something as they exit this plane is one of the most arduous journeys you can take, imo. I can understand the toll this must take after some time, when you relate to and see yourself in your patients - whether animal or human.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#117

Post by pc86 » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 4:13 PM UTC

jncfhnb wrote: post #92

Fomite wrote: post #4

I work in a veterinary school, and it's remarkable to see how worn down veterinarians are compared to my colleagues in "people medicine" (and my comparison group are infectious disease folks - they're not exactly a cheerful group). To be honest, at this point, between how hard it is to get into vet school, the debt load, and how you're signing up for crushing compassion fatigue your whole life, and a career of hoping…

Medical doctors have a higher suicide rate

That doesn't seem to be accurate, do you have a source?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016517812... shows in 3.3 that not only is the veterinarian rate more than 2x that of physicians, but the upper end of the 95% CI for physicians is below the lower end of the 95% CI for veterinarians. It doesn't appear to be anywhere close.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#118

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 4:13 PM UTC

somenameforme wrote: post #83

lotsofpulp wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not see any evidence of guilting. > The incident involved a four-month-old German Shepherd puppy who'd swallowed a skewer and needed emergency surgery life-saving surgery. The cost of the complicated procedure and after care was close to $10,000 – more than the owner could afford. As a last resort, to avoid euthanasia, the clinic offered her the option to surrender the puppy to a new owner who could cover the co…

Is a million dollars a reasonable price? The point I make is that you might not be able to tell a reasonable price, per se. But you can generally tell an unreasonable price. It's some x-rays, animal quality anesthesia/meds, and labor. It's hard to see how this reasonably adds up to $10,000. Were time not an issue, they could probably take a trip to Mexico, get the operation done for maybe a few hundred dollars, and c…

> Is a million dollars a reasonable price?

If you can’t find someone else to sell to you for less, then yes. Barring broken markets such as due to regulatory capture, etc.

> The point I make is that you might not be able to tell a reasonable price, per se.

>But you can generally tell an unreasonable price.

These strike me as conflicting statements, otherwise I don’t know what per se means.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37846041

> And the reason I think that's particularly relevant is that it's not like the underlying costs really change.

>So developing world costs tend to give you a 'raw materials' cost, where all that's left is labor + profit.

Why are labor costs not underlying costs? How about liability insurance? Real estate?

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#119

Post by _coveredInBees » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 4:15 PM UTC

philomath_mn wrote: post #69

makeitdouble wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. I'd argue not having the means to deal with emergency situations would make someone unfit to own a pet. I get that circumstances can change and costs increase, but I also feel too many people assume a pet doesn't cost much or isn't muc…

So every pet owner without at least $10k set aside for pet emergency care is a bad owner. That describes 99% of pet owners. I agree people should plan for more pet-related costs than they do, but, as technology progresses, there doesn't seem to be a ceiling on the amount you _could_ spend to save a pet. In my case, we have always taken in rescue animals. So the choice is between leaving the pet at shelter or a life i…

There are pretty decent pet insurance policies responsible pet owners could purchase and pay a monthly premium on. I've used it for my past two dogs and it has been painless and easy to use when I needed to.

So it isn't a big $10K+ or bust argument. But the sad fact of the matter is very few pet owners assume ownership while planning for the potential bad days and the extra financial burden and responsibility that they should feel when they take on pet ownership.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#120

Post by rcarr » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 4:15 PM UTC

fishyjoe wrote: post #67

rcarr wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You admit not having experience with a certain field and then laugh at the terminology they commonly use? Your comment is unhelpful and barely related to the article. Then you get mad at a group for presumably downvoting your irrelevant comment? Also, I don't feel like "empathizing with animals" is a huge insight that you've cracked. Most people do it.

Yes, genuine people who aren't playing social games laugh spontaneously, they don't contact the moral police to determine whether they can laugh or not. Other people who are more prone to going with the herd will wait to see what other people are doing and then determine whether they should laugh or not. You actually can see this in real time watching stand up comedians - for certain jokes the majority of the crowd will laugh in a different manner to normal to feedback to the comedian that the joke is funny but dancing on the line of acceptability. A good comedian uses that information and either addresses it immediately or changes their set accordingly.

So yes, I found the use of the word "patient" funny because the context shift is funny to me. Like seriously what is your attitude to life, that you're only allowed to laugh about things specific to your own profession? That at all other times you must be deferential with head bowed and no sense of humour? The whole point of comedy is the coming together of unexpected and differing viewpoints on topics, which is an inevitable part of being human, because we all have own own unique backstories which have gone on to shape our views of the world.

> Your comment is unhelpful and barely related to the article.

I would love to know what you deem qualifies you to be the arbitrer of what is and isn't helpful. My comment may be unhelpful to you but your experience is not everyone's experience, I would wager that for anyone not familiar with this terminology or what vet's face on a day to day basis, then it is likely helpful and relevant.

> Also, I don't feel like "empathizing with animals" is a huge insight that you've cracked. Most people do it.

I am no longer, but I spent a year as vegan, primarily for reasons of animal empathy, years prior to finding out about this patient terminology. And it still altered my perception. There is more than one way to gain insight and there are different levels of insight. Things look different from different angles. This was a new angle for me.

> Then you get mad at a group for presumably downvoting your irrelevant comment?

You're downvoting someone for sharing their personal growth experience. After a certain amount of downvotes a post gets flagged and can no longer be seen. So you're essentially trying to silence me, not because I've said anything hateful, but purely because what I've said doesn't align with your own views. And I consider that to be pretty fascist behaviour and I will call it out when I see it because it doesn't lead to good outcomes.