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A suicide crisis among veterinarians

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Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#21

Post by Dig1t »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16
Fomite wrote: post #4

I work in a veterinary school, and it's remarkable to see how worn down veterinarians are compared to my colleagues in "people medicine" (and my comparison group are infectious disease folks - they're not exactly a cheerful group). To be honest, at this point, between how hard it is to get into vet school, the debt load, and how you're signing up for crushing compassion fatigue your whole life, and a career of hoping…

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

>and then pressured the owner give the pup up when they couldn't afford that

My wife is a vet and I hear about this often.

From the vet's perspective, if the owner gives up the puppy then they don't have to put the puppy down. Putting down a puppy is heart-wrenching.

You can't give out free medical care, she regularly gives as many discounts as she's allowed to give away, even some she's not supposed to, especially for cases like that. But in the end, the choice is A: put the puppy down or B: do the procedure for free but then the owner has to give up the animal.

When presented that choice it's obvious you should try and convince the owner not to put the animal down.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#22

Post by biohax2015 »

fooop wrote: post #9

The business fundamentals and the emotional reality seem to be inherently at odds. I'll bet that this is a leading indicator for what's gonna happen in people medicine.

> leading indicator for what's gonna happen in people medicine.

It's been happening for a long time now: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/15/magazine/doctors-moral-cr...

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#23

Post by yawnr »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #15
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you're joking, but it wouldn't hurt to have a nationwide nonprofit pet insurance offering.

[flagged]

You are completely out of touch with reality and the people from all walks of life who have and care for pets. Please keep your terrible opinions to yourself.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#24

Post by candybar »

We can talk about other negative aspects of being a vet, but the primary factor is that they know how:

> But that reality of the job can also colour the way veterinarians view human lives – including their own – and for those already experiencing suicidal ideation, it can provide a simple justification: death is preferable to suffering. In a 2021 survey by pharmaceutical company Merck, 12.5% of the veterinarians surveyed said they were "suffering". And nearly half of the respondents were not receiving mental health care.

> "There's an idea that veterinarians work on the belief that it's right to euthanise a hopeless case," says Volk, "and we are seeing ourselves, emotionally, as hopeless cases."

> Death is a routine and repeated part of the job, and while it's never easy to end a life, Volk adds that it is easy to start seeing it as an option to alleviate their own distress. "I have medications in my clinic that are called 'Euthasol', and I euthanise all the time," she says. "Literally like five or six times a night."

> The CDC's 2019 study identified poisoning as the most common cause of death among veterinarians. The primary drug used was pentobarbital, one of the main medications used for animal euthanasia. The study’s authors determined that "training on euthanasia procedures and access to pentobarbital are some of the key factors contributing to the problem of suicide among veterinarians".

What often stops otherwise suicidal folks is that it's not an easy thing to do - suicide attempts usually do not lead to deaths (https://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-professionals/psychiatry-... - 5.4% according to one study, and the denominator here is # of people. not # of attempts). Vets on the other hand are trained to put down animals painlessly and effectively - it's not a surprise that those that have the means to complete suicide and have plenty of experience applying this to other animals then die disproportionately from suicide.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#25

Post by chamakits »

When I was young, the first profession I said I wanted to be was a Vet. I was obsessed with it. I loved all animals, but dogs the most. Still do.

Over the years of having my own pets at some point I realized I would be dealing with animals in their worst condition. Sick, injured, and suffering. I knew I would be bonding with animals I would rarely see and maybe even be responsible for putting them to sleep when the time came. I knew I definitely did not want to be a vet.

I know a few vets, and I know they have that same love for animals. I don’t know how they do it.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#27

Post by makeitdouble »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16
Fomite wrote: post #4

I work in a veterinary school, and it's remarkable to see how worn down veterinarians are compared to my colleagues in "people medicine" (and my comparison group are infectious disease folks - they're not exactly a cheerful group). To be honest, at this point, between how hard it is to get into vet school, the debt load, and how you're signing up for crushing compassion fatigue your whole life, and a career of hoping…

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

> The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners.

I'd argue not having the means to deal with emergency situations would make someone unfit to own a pet.

I get that circumstances can change and costs increase, but I also feel too many people assume a pet doesn't cost much or isn't much of a comitment.

You're right that the costs are crazy, and not taking it into account when deciding to take or keep a pet is irresponsible.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#28

Post by partitioned »

rcarr wrote: post #17

I'm not really an animal person and I briefly dated a vet once and it always used to crack me up how when she was telling a story she would refer to the animals as patients. Like I get it, animals are sentient, have emotions, are intelligent, have ways of communicating etc. But there is still something inherently funny about this to me, like a sketch show where you're zoomed in on what you assume are two doctors in w…

I think its normal to be able to empathize with vets. I don't think I'd really want to be around someone who doesn't empathize with dealing with wounded and dying animals.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#29

Post by Fomite »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16
Fomite wrote: post #4

I work in a veterinary school, and it's remarkable to see how worn down veterinarians are compared to my colleagues in "people medicine" (and my comparison group are infectious disease folks - they're not exactly a cheerful group). To be honest, at this point, between how hard it is to get into vet school, the debt load, and how you're signing up for crushing compassion fatigue your whole life, and a career of hoping…

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

Also, as for "Once that cash cow is gone maybe vet school prices will come down to earth." - the source of the rising cost is a combination of two things, neither one of which has anything to do with small animal medicine:

1) The loss of industry support for large animal vets

2) The loss of state funding for veterinary schools, which has put pressure on the one remaining dial available to those schools, which is tuition. This is a systemic problem that extends way beyond vet schools, but is particularly obvious there

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#30

Post by vector_spaces »

Dig1t wrote: post #21
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

>and then pressured the owner give the pup up when they couldn't afford that My wife is a vet and I hear about this often. From the vet's perspective, if the owner gives up the puppy then they don't have to put the puppy down. Putting down a puppy is heart-wrenching. You can't give out free medical care, she regularly gives as many discounts as she's allowed to give away, even some she's not supposed to, especially f…

Why is it like that though? Like what are the economics of performing the procedure that it's possible for it to be free if the owner gives it up? Does someone different ultimately foot the bill?
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