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USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

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Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#111

Post by Nextgrid »

lesuorac wrote: post #13

I know everybody is still on the high from USB-C but I'm still going to go on the record it will be one of the biggest disasters in cable history. 1) There's going to be video-only cables; low-voltage only cables; etc and this time everything is usb-c so you can literally only tell which ables work by testing all of the dozen cables instead of the 1-2 USB-As you have. 2) The connector is symmetrical but the pins aren…

The standard is also just terrible even if followed to the letter. The connectors are just too fragile for a day-to-day interconnect, and a fire risk when higher currents are involved.

I've now had to replace 2 USB-C host ports (on expensive Apple devices, where an "official" repair would cost ~50% of the value of the device) despite taking reasonable care of my devices (under which care no other connectors ever failed).

Examining them under a magnifying glass showed that the metal pin delaminated from the plastic middle part of the host connector and was ever so slightly skewed towards the adjacent pin, presumably making enough contact/interference to make the whole thing fail.

In a sane design, a misalignment/skew of Even with the new ports, I can make it lose Thunderbolt/DisplayPort connection by bumping the connector. It's probably a mismatch of tolerances between connector and port (maybe my cables are out of spec), but it's never been a problem with any other connector.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#113

Post by kccqzy »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #96
alanbernstein wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own a usb-c male to usb-c female extension cable that I connect to a yubikey. The yubikey only works in one orientation. I don't have any other bits to test hypotheses with, but I believe the cable was made with the symmetry problem described above.

AFAIK there's no such thing as a standards compliant USB-C male to USB-C female extension cable. The very concept goes against the spec[1]. You have a point though; I'm sure there are abominations out there that abuse the USB spec in all sorts of interesting ways, they just haven't been something I've encountered in my years of using USB-C for everything. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/10xj74r/wh…

You can make a USB-C hub that has only a USB-C port.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#115

Post by Clamchop »

lisper wrote: post #97
devit wrote: post #81

If you have a reversible connector, then you might be entangled in a dilemma of which way is the "better" or "optimal" or "canonical" way, while with a non-reversible one there is only one way and thus no dilemma. And in fact USB-C is not really physically reversible, because the hardware detects which way it's plugged in and permutes the signals, as opposed to mirroring all the wires, so there is indeed a "right" wa…

And indeed there are usb-c hubs that only work in one orientation so we now have the worst of all possible worlds.

I'm reluctant to consider shoddy or noncompliant implementations as counting against a technology. If I did, then it'd follow that there's no such thing as a good idea, and I could only agree with that if I were having a bad episode of ennui.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#116

Post by mtmail »

devit wrote: post #81

If you have a reversible connector, then you might be entangled in a dilemma of which way is the "better" or "optimal" or "canonical" way, while with a non-reversible one there is only one way and thus no dilemma. And in fact USB-C is not really physically reversible, because the hardware detects which way it's plugged in and permutes the signals, as opposed to mirroring all the wires, so there is indeed a "right" wa…

> permutes the signals

Does that cause a noticable difference, for example lower speeds?

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#117

Post by Ajedi32 »

Izkata wrote: post #67
lesuorac wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nintendo Switch is non-compliant [1] so you've already seen (2) it just hasn't been a big enough problem to be visible to you. I suspect a big reason for that is the Switch is a wall USB-C charger so you don't try to connect it between many USB-C devices. [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/87vmud/the_...

I was responding to the "out for over a decade" part; how long they've been available doesn't mean much if they haven't been very common for consumer electronics for that long. Up until this year I've had only 1 such cable, my phone charger, that could get mixed up in any way... and that one couldn't be mixed up because I didn't have a second unused cable to mix it up with.

I've been using USB-C on basically every consumer electronics device I've used over nearly the past decade. Over the years I have accumulated:

1. A laptop with a USB-C power/data/DisplayPort port

2. A phone with a USB-C power/data port

3. Multiple USB power banks which use a single USB-C port for both charging and discharging

4. A smartwatch with a dock that uses USB-C

5. Multiple flashlights with USB-C charging

6. Multiple bluetooth speakers with USB-C charging

7. A pair of earbuds with a case that uses USB-C charging

8. Dozens of various USB-C cables and power bricks, some of which came included with the products above

So far I've had zero issues with any of them. Sure, not all cables support full charging speeds/data rates, but generally speaking I can just plug things in and expect them to work in some fashion.

Maybe to iPhone users USB-C feels like a new thing? To everyone else it's been a mature ecosystem for a long time now, which is why a lot of the comments in this thread commenting about it as if it's a brand new, unproven technology seem very strange to me.

Edit: Just remembered I also have an air duster and an electric toothbrush that use USB-C. Those didn't immediately occur to me because I don't have to charge them often. There might be more I'm forgetting...

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#118

Post by hiatus »

ezfe wrote: post #105
lisper wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And indeed there are usb-c hubs that only work in one orientation so we now have the worst of all possible worlds.

I would argue those hubs do not work

It's the same with usb-c extension cords. Our extension cords now need microcontrollers in them, what a time to be alive.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#119

Post by coldpie »

blamazon wrote: post #11

This page was difficult to read on my mobile due to ads. Here is a link to the source of the interview mentioned in the headline: https://text.npr.org/2019/06/21/734451600/ever-plugged-a-usb...

Install an ad blocker, friend! Firefox + uBlock Origin on Android, or 1Blocker on iOS.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#120

Post by pnpnp »

c22 wrote: post #93
stavros wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, HDMI ports are in weird orientation and mounted in hard-to-reach places as well, but the shape makes it very obvious (even by feel) which way it should (or can't) go. This is much harder with the rectangular USB plug.

I have definitely been frustrated by an hdmi port I couldn't see. I almost always have to gain visibility on the port to get the cable inserted correctly. If I happen to already know the orientation of the port on a device I can do it by feel, but I could also do this with the microusb-b to my old cell phone.

It’s still better than nothing at all! If you can physically see the connector, that’s a huge help. For USB-A, you often had to look into the cable to figure out which way it went.

I agree that HDMI can be heads or tails based on if it’s tucked behind a TV, but sometimes I can feel enough to get it right. That was never so with the original USB.

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