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Toyota Will Adopt Tesla-Style Cast Bodies That Might Be Impossible to Fix

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Re: Toyota Will Adopt Tesla-Style Cast Bodies That Might Be Impossible to Fix

#101

Cast metals are rather brittle, normally? Good for complex shapes that may be further refined by machining, and in compression loads, but not in shear or tension. I would think they would shatter in a collision rather than bend like steel.

Not all metals. The stronger aluminum alloys get their strength from precipitation aging, which gives a lot of similar benefits to forging (via different processes), and because of that cannot be forged very much. They do get stronger when forged, but only slightly, and they break apart if you form them too much.

Cast iron is already used in transmission cases etc, and it does indeed shatter. But it's not because its cast (although it can't be forged even a little; it breaks apart almost like sand), it's because it's actually just a name for an alloy. It's very high carbon (>1%) steel, which makes it very brittle but also very easy to cast. You can cast aluminum or low carbon steel and it will not be brittle at all, particularly if you let it cool slowly.

Re: Toyota Will Adopt Tesla-Style Cast Bodies That Might Be Impossible to Fix

#102
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So why the write off nonsense Write-off is about insurance policies, and whether it is cheaper to repair damage to the standard committed to by the insurer within the parameters (e. g., new original manufacturer parts) in the insurance contact or to pay the amount the insurer is committed to pay in the alternative. It is only tangentially related to whether it is econonically viable to restore the vehicle to usable…

When hail totaled my car, I kept it for another 4 years. Just "cosmetic" damage. It's still kicking around in New Mexico; I guess it's 17 years old, now.

My current car was an insurance write off and looks good if you look at it casually though looking closely the line is not quite straight down the side where it was hit and you can see a boundary in the paint where the respray finished. Works fine though.

Re: Toyota Will Adopt Tesla-Style Cast Bodies That Might Be Impossible to Fix

#103

“cast bodies might be more difficult to fix in the event of major damage, such as a crash.” Raise your hand if you’ve ever had a car NOT be written off after “major damage”. The industry already doesn’t bother to fix cars, they just get scrapped, so I don’t see what the actual difference is.

Hand raised. Of course, your question is basically a tautology if you define "major damage" as "that which causes a car to get totaled". The whole concern is that, with these cast bodies, damage that would have been considered fixable or minor in the past now becomes an instant write off.

Not really. Major damage would be damage to the subframes or wheel wells. It's a step right above getting entire axles ripped off. In most situations, for most cars, that will total the car.

Re: Toyota Will Adopt Tesla-Style Cast Bodies That Might Be Impossible to Fix

#104
Man why do people keep saying this. The normal parts that are replaced by a casting are LITERALLY WELDED TOGETHER. If there is an impact strong enough to bend that piece cast aluminum or welded steel then the car is most likely a right-off. And if not, you can in theory repair both, its just hard for both cases. Naturally the technology used to repair steel welded frames is much more common as its 80 year old technology. Body shops would need different tooling and methods to repair aluminum frames.

And in fact, the aluminum casting is actually more stable. With cast aluminum you can get it into the perfect shape and you can even cast rips and things like that in it. The final piece is a much more optimal shape then you could ever get from welded steel. Companies try to minimize the amount of welds in a design because its costly and increases the size of your body shop.

See here: https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2020/04/Tesla...

An just because this articles doesn't make this clear, Tesla still have crushcans integrated in the design and those are perfectly replaceable, just as they are now. So this really only matters when you have front impact so strong that it goes threw the crushcan and damages the massively strong casting.

In such a case, you should be happy for the extra stiffness provided by the casting, because it might make the difference between live and death.

At the end of the day this is a no brainer. You are replacing literally 100s of robots, lots of production time, lots more chance for error and it ends up costing far less. The waste majority of cars, never do repairs on their welded together body structure, this is the extreme minority of cases. Seems to me it makes a whole lot more sense to optimize for the majority of cases, not the vast minority.

For those that want to see the process in operations, this is a nice video: https://youtu.be/BwoiFC-HwPE?si=R9sRMEDkgDJqBMew&t=306

Re: Toyota Will Adopt Tesla-Style Cast Bodies That Might Be Impossible to Fix

#105
post #46

> Toyota anticipates it'll generate 20 percent higher productivity than its competitors, and could halve body assembly time from 10 hours. This is a nice efficiency gain, but they don’t seem to be constrained by how quickly they can produce cars…as far as I can tell, demand in the market for their product is more based on the cost of the supply, not how quickly they are producing units. Or are they thinking that by p…

Manufacturing cars currently still involves humans. Halving body assembly time also means you only need to pay half the wages for the humans. That's going to significantly reduce their expenses.

I wonder if this means their cars will become more affordable…

Re: Toyota Will Adopt Tesla-Style Cast Bodies That Might Be Impossible to Fix

#106
post #50

“cast bodies might be more difficult to fix in the event of major damage, such as a crash.” Raise your hand if you’ve ever had a car NOT be written off after “major damage”. The industry already doesn’t bother to fix cars, they just get scrapped, so I don’t see what the actual difference is.

It does lower the bar for what is considered "major damage". Having a car written off when you need to essentially take the entire thing apart is fairly reasonable, as is not wanting to repair the actual body part itself. When the car is made out of multiple different parts, a low-speed bump into a bollard or another car might result in the bumper needing to be replaced. Not the cheapest repair, but definitely quite…

Those castings have a slot for crush cans that are not welded. If you have a low-speed bump it would crush your bumper and the crush cans behind it, it would not effect the casting.

Literally nobody plans to remove crush cans from the vehicle, even if the whole body is cast.

See: https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2020/04/Tesla...

Re: Toyota Will Adopt Tesla-Style Cast Bodies That Might Be Impossible to Fix

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I feel like this is the next stepping stone on a path we have been on for years. I remember Rich Rebuilds got rear ended in his Rivian and the total repair bill was somewhere around $30K if I remember right. I really do wish repairability was considered more not less, but with safety standards, manufacturing costs, etc it seems like cars are racing towards the cliff of just “discarding” if they have a problem ju…

With EVs this problem is getting a lot worse. In latest-gen EVs the battery pack is a stressed member of the frame. Any type of collision that distorts the frame will also imply a deformation of the battery module, which means instant write-off. So if you think about it - if you first decide you need to go down the "structural battery" route to save cost and weight, you've already lost repairability if the frame is b…

The battery pack would be bent after the crash if the pack is structural or not.

Do you think just because the pack itself is not structural it just not gone get unharmed?

And by the way, structural pack doesn't mean its not replaceable.

Re: Toyota Will Adopt Tesla-Style Cast Bodies That Might Be Impossible to Fix

#108
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's probably referencing Tesla's structural battery packs. Essentially the pack makes up the bottom part of the frame of the car. https://electrek.co/2021/01/19/tesla-structural-battery-pack...

The Ford Mach-E does the same thing. There's thin box frame rails as part of the traditional ladder frame, and the battery pack actually forms the floorpan and stressed crossmembers. Without the battery pack the frame will deform because there's no lateral reinforcement, making it this weird hybrid of a ladder frame and unibody that it shares with the Model X and Ioniq 5. Most EVs like the Bolt and the Ioniq 6 are un…

Its not actually the same. People constantly mix things up because the words people use are so wrong.

Structural packs are nothing new, lots of EV always had structural packs.

What Tesla is doing in the newer Model Y (called 'Structural Pack') is actually structural cells. That's the innovation. Where the cells themselves are glued together and sandwiched in a pack. So the cells themselves act as vertical enforcers. The whole back is basically filled with structural foam.

The only other company that is doing something like that is BYD but that is quite different as those are really big Prismatic cells stacked up.

Re: Toyota Will Adopt Tesla-Style Cast Bodies That Might Be Impossible to Fix

#109
post #63

Environmentally friendly my ass. Any minor damage and the car will be toast because the insurance company will total it. Even if it gets back on the road it'll have a salvage title, something that's poison to a car and ensures that it ends up either crushed or parted out. These are already problems with unibody cars thanks to how quickly insurance adjusters will take any deformation of the core unibody, even just cos…

> Any minor damage and the car will be toast because the insurance company will total it.

No because cars with castings still have crush cans. Only a crash hard enough to go threw the crush cans and bend the frame will require totaling.

And that is not a small crash. The castings are very strong and hard to bend, being aluminum that is specifically cast in a shape to be strong.

You can see the crush cans here: https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2020/04/Tesla...

Re: Toyota Will Adopt Tesla-Style Cast Bodies That Might Be Impossible to Fix

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is frame damage generally results in a write off. It’s too expand too risky.

It often does if it's severe, but if the frame is just "tweaked" it can often be pulled back into spec with specialzed jigs and equipment. Any comprehensive collision repair shop will have that equipment.

My understanding is it’s just not common to do that anymore. Most vehicles are already unibody, so fixing frames is much harder.

If the damage is bad enough o require a frame fix, it’s very likely there’s significant damage to other parts of the car.

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