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Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

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Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#101

Post by AnthonyMouse »

hudon wrote: post #98
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is this supposed to be a detriment relative to? If someone compromises your device then they can also transfer all of the money out of your bank account, use it to buy gold bullion and be on a beach in a non-extradition country before you get your next bank statement.

Yes, fraud also exists when you use real currency, and your bank will refund you for fraudulent charges. What's your point?

"Your bank will refund you for fraudulent charges" doesn't prevent fraud, it puts the cost of fraud insurance into the cost of banking. Which may be significantly less efficient when the user or anyone other than the bank is the lowest cost avoider for preventing fraud.

They also won't refund you for fraudulent charges unless you report them quickly enough.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#102

Post by krupan »

bhaak wrote: post #64
krupan wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are talking about settlement times of Bitcoin transactions. Yes, those take 10 minutes at best, or roughly around an hour if you want to be very confident that the funds have settled. Settlement times on dollars is generally 3 days at best. The lightning network on top of Bitcoin gives you credit card speed transaction times, with settlement still happening on the Bitcoin layer in minutes not days.

The settlement times of the Dollar is instant if cash is used. Credit cards are fast, too. Even bank transactions are usually faster than 3 days. How do you arrive at „3 days at best“? LN transactions are usually not settled within minutes but when channels are closed. Anything else would negate their whole advantage. Are you thinking of rollups (which Bitcoin doesn’t have yet).

Paper dollar settlement times are fast, if you happen to be in the same physical location as the person you are transacting with.

Everything else you mentioned is a transaction not an actual settlement of cash. When you pay with a credit card, for example, no dollars change hands. The credit card company promises to pay the merchant at some point in the future. I've heard it can take 2 weeks for actual dollars to show up in their bank account. Similar with all bank transfers, though usually more like 3 days.

And of course, in all those scenarios with banks involved, you don't actually have a physical pile of dollar bills in a vault at the bank. You just have a promise of dollars from the bank. And they have all promised more dollars like that then they actually have.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#103

Post by krupan »

bhaak wrote: post #64
krupan wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are talking about settlement times of Bitcoin transactions. Yes, those take 10 minutes at best, or roughly around an hour if you want to be very confident that the funds have settled. Settlement times on dollars is generally 3 days at best. The lightning network on top of Bitcoin gives you credit card speed transaction times, with settlement still happening on the Bitcoin layer in minutes not days.

The settlement times of the Dollar is instant if cash is used. Credit cards are fast, too. Even bank transactions are usually faster than 3 days. How do you arrive at „3 days at best“? LN transactions are usually not settled within minutes but when channels are closed. Anything else would negate their whole advantage. Are you thinking of rollups (which Bitcoin doesn’t have yet).

You are correct about lightning transactions. Funds are settled in the Bitcoin layer when the two channel partners close the channel. I think that time can vary depending on the channel partners, but when they do decide to close, then it takes the normal Bitcoin "transaction" (settlement) time.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#104

Post by cjbgkagh »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #92
cjbgkagh wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t trust crypto either. My wealth and focus are entirely wrapped up in business ventures which are inflation resistant. Also, the US is not the country it used to be so past performance shouldn’t be as indicative of future performance. Particularly the Nixon depegging (Nixon shock) from gold substantially changed the character of the market and the US economy. It takes a long time for the effects to be felt in f…

My wealth and focus are entirely wrapped up in business ventures. You're lying to yourself when you say you don't trust government. Your wealth and business ventures are secured by the rule of law --- aka government. It's a right wing mind virus that entices people to express distrust in government --- as they trust government with everything they do --- and vote for those actively trying to destroy the same trust.

If it makes you feel any better I used to trust the government, I did military software and was quite jingoistic. Peace through superior firepower etc. I figured ‘of course the government is good, people like me are working for them’. Then I got a good look at the realities from the inside, figured they were going to crush the middle class and that if I wished to escape that fate I would have to exit the middle class asap.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#105

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #75
bhaak wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The settlement times of the Dollar is instant if cash is used. Credit cards are fast, too. Even bank transactions are usually faster than 3 days. How do you arrive at „3 days at best“? LN transactions are usually not settled within minutes but when channels are closed. Anything else would negate their whole advantage. Are you thinking of rollups (which Bitcoin doesn’t have yet).

Traditional ACH transactions take days because they're not even transmitted to the other bank until the end of the day. Then you have to wait for their response. Credit cards are even worse. All you get instantly is whether the card info is valid and has that much credit. But it could be a stolen card or a customer who issues a fraudulent chargeback, and you may not find out about that for a month or more. Meanwhile…

> But it could be a stolen card

Ah yes and bitcoin is better here because it doesn't even try to stop stolen money from being used.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#106

Post by gameshot911 »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #3

Crypto and NFTs are the ultimate scam. It's wooden nickels, the Brooklyn Bridge and Bernie Madoff all taken to their ultimate logical conclusion --- something with no intrinsic value whatsoever (electrons) is being exchanged for real functioning currency. But what really sets the crypto scam apart is the fact that no is really lying about the fundamental nature of the transaction. No one is hiding the fact that by bu…

Computer and phone screens are just "photons flashing around", and yet the information they represent is indisputably useful.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#107

Post by hudon »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #101
hudon wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, fraud also exists when you use real currency, and your bank will refund you for fraudulent charges. What's your point?

"Your bank will refund you for fraudulent charges" doesn't prevent fraud, it puts the cost of fraud insurance into the cost of banking. Which may be significantly less efficient when the user or anyone other than the bank is the lowest cost avoider for preventing fraud. They also won't refund you for fraudulent charges unless you report them quickly enough.

You've drifted off-course. We were talking about whether or not double spends are possible in Bitcoin and now you're arguing about how banks deal with fraud refunds. peace!

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#108

Post by majewsky »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #75
bhaak wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The settlement times of the Dollar is instant if cash is used. Credit cards are fast, too. Even bank transactions are usually faster than 3 days. How do you arrive at „3 days at best“? LN transactions are usually not settled within minutes but when channels are closed. Anything else would negate their whole advantage. Are you thinking of rollups (which Bitcoin doesn’t have yet).

Traditional ACH transactions take days because they're not even transmitted to the other bank until the end of the day. Then you have to wait for their response. Credit cards are even worse. All you get instantly is whether the card info is valid and has that much credit. But it could be a stolen card or a customer who issues a fraudulent chargeback, and you may not find out about that for a month or more. Meanwhile…

When I pay something via credit card in an online store, my bank's app gives me a transaction notification within 3-5 seconds. I don't know whether that means that the transaction has been fully settled, but at least it appears to be moving through the system rather quickly.

> Traditional ACH transactions take days because they're not even transmitted to the other bank until the end of the day.

From what I hear in the US, their banking system is slow to innovate outside of fintech providers. Here in Europe, SEPA Instant Direct Transfer allows ACH transactions to be settled within at most 20 seconds.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#109

Post by krupan »

lawn wrote: post #90
krupan wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin is not expensive to use, I'm not sure why you think it is It is far more private by default than our current central bank and credit card system. Could it be better? Maybe. Does everyone want a fully anonymous system? I'm not sure

Not expensive? Is that a joke? At the moment the average transaction fee is almost $4, but cases of more than $10 or $20 are not uncommon. It has been as high as $50 as well. It's just too expensive and/or too slow to work for day to day payments.

$4 per what? Do you even know?

Have you heard of the lightning network that is a fast transaction layer built on top of Bitcoin?

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#110

Post by krupan »

bhaak wrote: post #100
krupan wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vitalik says, "hey, let's do this" and everyone does it. Even when it's crazy things like rolling back transactions. Satoshi doesn't even say anything and hasn't for a very long time.

So you don't believe in the existence of Ethereum Classic?

Does it still exist, with people actually using it? Is that what you were referring to originally?
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