Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again • Hacker News Board

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#91

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:35 PM UTC

hudon wrote: post #80

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Value is always decided by humans. The question is, is it decided in a distributed way via general consensus, or in a centralized way that exposes you to the whims of unaccountable bureaucrats? Bitcoin devs can do whatever they want, except that there is no law putting them in charge so if they attempt to commit fraud they lose everyone's respect which was the only thing giving them any power, and they get replaced b…

Devs can commit fraud without anyone knowing is my point, actually. Picture a scenario like the 2013 Bitcoin fork but with a twist: a dev introduces a bug that allows a transaction to spend bitcoin without corresponding inputs, and triggers it while in the next block spending Bitcoin to buy a coffee, then after a few more blocks for confirmation, publicly announces the bug and the need to move off of the most-work ch…

The white paper assumes that you don't have a malicious device. If someone can modify the code running your device, they don't need to double spend, they can just directly steal your cryptocurrency.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#92

Post by jqpabc123 » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:37 PM UTC

cjbgkagh wrote: post #87

jqpabc123 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fiat money system also operates on faith, but that faith is in the government so by your definition that's ok I guess. Given a choice between the most stable government on the planet and the scam artists running crypto exchanges --- the choice is a no brainer. Personally, I trust the government about the same amount as I trust big companies, not at all. But you trust scam artists running crypto exchanges from und…

I don’t trust crypto either. My wealth and focus are entirely wrapped up in business ventures which are inflation resistant. Also, the US is not the country it used to be so past performance shouldn’t be as indicative of future performance. Particularly the Nixon depegging (Nixon shock) from gold substantially changed the character of the market and the US economy. It takes a long time for the effects to be felt in f…

My wealth and focus are entirely wrapped up in business ventures.

You're lying to yourself when you say you don't trust government.

Your wealth and business ventures are secured by the rule of law --- aka government.

It's a right wing mind virus that entices people to express distrust in government --- as they trust government with everything they do --- and vote for those actively trying to destroy the same trust.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#93

Post by hudon » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:38 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #91

hudon wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devs can commit fraud without anyone knowing is my point, actually. Picture a scenario like the 2013 Bitcoin fork but with a twist: a dev introduces a bug that allows a transaction to spend bitcoin without corresponding inputs, and triggers it while in the next block spending Bitcoin to buy a coffee, then after a few more blocks for confirmation, publicly announces the bug and the need to move off of the most-work ch…

The white paper assumes that you don't have a malicious device. If someone can modify the code running your device, they don't need to double spend, they can just directly steal your cryptocurrency.

Yes, there are other ways of stealing besides double spends. We're in agreement there.

And I think we can both further agree that someone that isn't us modifies the code of the Bitcoin node we run on our devices. Unless you're still running Bitcoin 0.1, but then you're actually not on the "Bitcoin" network as we know it today. There are pressures outside of your control that make it so that you have to update your node, and you have to run new code you probably haven't reviewed or approved yourself.

The only way to make Bitcoin work as defined by Satoshi is to have the code be 100% perfect and then not touch it, and that ship sailed a long time ago.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#94

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:48 PM UTC

hudon wrote: post #93

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The white paper assumes that you don't have a malicious device. If someone can modify the code running your device, they don't need to double spend, they can just directly steal your cryptocurrency.

Yes, there are other ways of stealing besides double spends. We're in agreement there. And I think we can both further agree that someone that isn't us modifies the code of the Bitcoin node we run on our devices. Unless you're still running Bitcoin 0.1, but then you're actually not on the "Bitcoin" network as we know it today. There are pressures outside of your control that make it so that you have to update your no…

What is this supposed to be a detriment relative to? If someone compromises your device then they can also transfer all of the money out of your bank account, use it to buy gold bullion and be on a beach in a non-extradition country before you get your next bank statement.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#95

Post by linesinthesand » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:48 PM UTC

Who's 'us'? Crypto sure did not fool me

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#96

Post by jqpabc123 » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:50 PM UTC

JSavageOne wrote: post #23

jqpabc123 wrote: post #3

Crypto and NFTs are the ultimate scam. It's wooden nickels, the Brooklyn Bridge and Bernie Madoff all taken to their ultimate logical conclusion --- something with no intrinsic value whatsoever (electrons) is being exchanged for real functioning currency. But what really sets the crypto scam apart is the fact that no is really lying about the fundamental nature of the transaction. No one is hiding the fact that by bu…

How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying, and the code is all open source? The word "scam" implies someone is being misled. How is cryptocurrency any more of a scam than fiat currency, ie. digits in the computer of some private bank or central bank?

How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying

It's scam in that you're being enticed to mislead yourself.

You're ignoring the obvious difference between "legal tender" and electrons. Most children understand that "monopoly money" isn't real "legal tender" --- but you don't?

Those running the crypto "marketplace" don't suffer from these sort of delusions.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#97

Post by krupan » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:51 PM UTC

bhaak wrote: post #63

krupan wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethereum is essentially centrally controlled and Bitcoin is absolutely not.

In what way is Ethereum centrally controlled that Bitcoin isn‘t?

Vitalik says, "hey, let's do this" and everyone does it. Even when it's crazy things like rolling back transactions.

Satoshi doesn't even say anything and hasn't for a very long time.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#98

Post by hudon » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:55 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #94

hudon wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there are other ways of stealing besides double spends. We're in agreement there. And I think we can both further agree that someone that isn't us modifies the code of the Bitcoin node we run on our devices. Unless you're still running Bitcoin 0.1, but then you're actually not on the "Bitcoin" network as we know it today. There are pressures outside of your control that make it so that you have to update your no…

What is this supposed to be a detriment relative to? If someone compromises your device then they can also transfer all of the money out of your bank account, use it to buy gold bullion and be on a beach in a non-extradition country before you get your next bank statement.

Yes, fraud also exists when you use real currency, and your bank will refund you for fraudulent charges. What's your point?

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#99

Post by k__ » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:55 PM UTC

krupan wrote: post #51

k__ wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, Bitcoin was just the low hanging fruit. Proof of Work is probably the way to go, but please make it useful work.

Securing the Bitcoin network is the useful work.

Too hard to sell

;)

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#100

Post by bhaak » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:56 PM UTC

krupan wrote: post #97

bhaak wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way is Ethereum centrally controlled that Bitcoin isn‘t?

Vitalik says, "hey, let's do this" and everyone does it. Even when it's crazy things like rolling back transactions. Satoshi doesn't even say anything and hasn't for a very long time.

So you don't believe in the existence of Ethereum Classic?