Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again • Hacker News Board

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#61

Post by krupan » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 4:20 PM UTC

lawn wrote: post #27

ferfumarma wrote: post #5

Crypto does have utility, but there's only room for one: bitcoin. Everything else is just a me-too derivative that can add nothing except the possibility of central control (like the "digital dollar"). The ability to instantly transmit the hardest asset known to man (harder than gold, in the sense of inflation resistance) does have utility, regardless of what critics say. It has downsides too: the ability to be lost…

> Crypto does have utility, but there's only room for one: bitcoin. Except that Bitcoin is very expensive to actually use and isn't private by default. That Bitcoin is the only one with value is only wishful thinking from the Bitcoin maximalists.

Bitcoin is not expensive to use, I'm not sure why you think it is

It is far more private by default than our current central bank and credit card system. Could it be better? Maybe. Does everyone want a fully anonymous system? I'm not sure

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#62

Post by AnonC » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 4:20 PM UTC

ferfumarma wrote: post #5

Crypto does have utility, but there's only room for one: bitcoin. Everything else is just a me-too derivative that can add nothing except the possibility of central control (like the "digital dollar"). The ability to instantly transmit the hardest asset known to man (harder than gold, in the sense of inflation resistance) does have utility, regardless of what critics say. It has downsides too: the ability to be lost…

> Crypto does have utility, but there's only room for one: bitcoin.

That it doesn’t have any known/recognizable founder has helped it quite a bit. Compare that to other coins with founders who have compromised on things (in some or many people’s views) and it makes the case stronger. Plus the fact that it didn’t have an ICO-like event — where the people launching it and their friends get a big stake for close to nothing — has also helped reinforce the idea that it’s less scammy.

> Everything else is just a me-too derivative that can add nothing except the possibility of central control (like the "digital dollar").

I’m not sure where you’re getting this from if you’re comparing all other cryptocurrencies. Would Monero and similar currencies be a “me too” derivative too? If yes, why? Monero is quite steady, AFAIK, in its valuation in fiat currency terms.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#63

Post by bhaak » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 4:21 PM UTC

krupan wrote: post #47

JSavageOne wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin uses about 100x more energy than ethereum, has 5x less throughput, and doesn't natively support smart contracts. There's definitely also room for ethereum.

Ethereum is essentially centrally controlled and Bitcoin is absolutely not.

In what way is Ethereum centrally controlled that Bitcoin isn‘t?

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#64

Post by bhaak » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 4:23 PM UTC

krupan wrote: post #35

adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem with bitcoin is it's fundamentally a terrible currency. With a transaction time of between 30 minutes and 16 hours, throughput of 7 transactions per second, and an energy consumption comparable to a medium sized country, it's an obviously awful currency for anything other than selling large quantities of drugs, ransom payments, or gambling.

You are talking about settlement times of Bitcoin transactions. Yes, those take 10 minutes at best, or roughly around an hour if you want to be very confident that the funds have settled. Settlement times on dollars is generally 3 days at best. The lightning network on top of Bitcoin gives you credit card speed transaction times, with settlement still happening on the Bitcoin layer in minutes not days.

The settlement times of the Dollar is instant if cash is used. Credit cards are fast, too. Even bank transactions are usually faster than 3 days.

How do you arrive at „3 days at best“?

LN transactions are usually not settled within minutes but when channels are closed. Anything else would negate their whole advantage. Are you thinking of rollups (which Bitcoin doesn’t have yet).

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#65

Post by panarky » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 4:33 PM UTC

jqpabc123 wrote: post #3

Crypto and NFTs are the ultimate scam. It's wooden nickels, the Brooklyn Bridge and Bernie Madoff all taken to their ultimate logical conclusion --- something with no intrinsic value whatsoever (electrons) is being exchanged for real functioning currency. But what really sets the crypto scam apart is the fact that no is really lying about the fundamental nature of the transaction. No one is hiding the fact that by bu…

> no intrinsic value

> electrons

> entry in a database

The most fascinating phenomenon of crypto arguments is that they never change.

Fifteen years ago you could find these same unintentionally ironic statements, where the most cutting criticisms of cryptocurrency are equally true of dollars and euros.

The only thing missing from this thread (so far) is mysticism about the money supply and confident assertions that dollars are somehow "backed" by the military or tax payments.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#66

Post by dig1 » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 4:37 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #44

dig1 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one is hiding the fact that by buying crypto, you are exchanging your legal working currency for nothing more than an entry in a database with no real guarantees of any kind --- legal or otherwise You just described the modern banking system. Yes, the government will give you guarantees for your stored funds to some extent , but when shit hits the fan, you are on your own (example 2008 financial crisis). > All c…

> You just described the modern banking system. Yes, the government will give you guarantees for your stored funds to some extent, but when shit hits the fan, you are on your own (example 2008 financial crisis). How much money did your savings account lose in 2008? Or your checking account?

Wrong question. Ask yourself how much value your saving/checking account lose in 2008. Check DXY history for that.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#67

Post by kylebenzle » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 4:37 PM UTC

ferfumarma wrote: post #5

Crypto does have utility, but there's only room for one: bitcoin. Everything else is just a me-too derivative that can add nothing except the possibility of central control (like the "digital dollar"). The ability to instantly transmit the hardest asset known to man (harder than gold, in the sense of inflation resistance) does have utility, regardless of what critics say. It has downsides too: the ability to be lost…

The Bitcoin project is called Bitcoin Cash now

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#68

Post by kemotep » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 4:39 PM UTC

kylebenzle wrote: post #50

JSavageOne wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying, and the code is all open source? The word "scam" implies someone is being misled. How is cryptocurrency any more of a scam than fiat currency, ie. digits in the computer of some private bank or central bank?

I find that people that are not smart enough to understand Bitcoin generally respond by getting mad about Bitcoin or ignoring it by calling it a scam.

Really? Only people who do not understand how bitcoin works do not like it and are just not smart enough?

This comment being repeated half a dozen times does not make it true or productive to conversation.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#69

Post by coldbrewed » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 4:40 PM UTC

rvz wrote: post #32

jqpabc123 wrote: post #3

Crypto and NFTs are the ultimate scam. It's wooden nickels, the Brooklyn Bridge and Bernie Madoff all taken to their ultimate logical conclusion --- something with no intrinsic value whatsoever (electrons) is being exchanged for real functioning currency. But what really sets the crypto scam apart is the fact that no is really lying about the fundamental nature of the transaction. No one is hiding the fact that by bu…

The cat is out of the bag on this one. Can't be 100% stopped or shutdown. Many have tried stopping it for 15 years and unfortunately they are still wasting their time trying to do so.

Crypto doesn't have to be explicitly stopped or shut down to be consigned to niche cases.

In fifteen years Linux went from a hobbyist project in 1991 to a major infrastructure project underpinning the Internet; Golang started in 2009 and now is ubiquitous in the tech world. Plenty of analogous technologies exist that were created and flourished in fifteen years, and they did so by providing meaningful value without requiring universal adoption to become effective.

In contrast the Bitcoin paper was released in 2008 and blockchain still hasn't found the killer app that people outside of the crypto ecosystem rely on in some serious capacity. Fifteen years in blockchain tech is still slow, risky, and painful to use; scams abound and there's a distinct lack of boring, practical use cases that make blockchains a safe technology to use as foundational infrastructure.

What manifests as people trying to stop blockchains is typically regulatory bodies trying to stop money laundering or the sale of unregistered investments. This isn't some shadowy cabal trying to crush Bitcoin but institutions watching Celsius Network and FTX detonate and trying to catch up to keep people from getting burned.

So yes, the blockchain cat is out of the bag, but nobody cares. We are squarely in "put up or shut up" territory because enough time has passed for the tech to develop; if blockchains never catch on then it's because the tech just wasn't that useful to begin with.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#70

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 4:40 PM UTC

the_gastropod wrote: post #33

JSavageOne wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying, and the code is all open source? The word "scam" implies someone is being misled. How is cryptocurrency any more of a scam than fiat currency, ie. digits in the computer of some private bank or central bank?

Cryptocurrencies are scams in much the same way MLM schemes are scams. Everyone knows what they’re buying into. But their expectations of outcomes are greatly skewed by the vested interests of existing participants.

MLM schemes are a scam because the premise is that you'll make money, but there is no creation of value and the increase in value just comes from the increase in users. Once you saturate the market, the last people to get in are left holding the bag. They lose their money so someone else could get it.

Cryptocurrencies increase in value as more people use them, but they don't fall to zero as a result of becoming widespread, because their sole value isn't for speculation. They can also be used as a currency.

Now, some of these valuations have built into them the assumption that their use as a currency will ultimately become widespread, because otherwise they would be worth a lot less than they are. But less isn't the same as zero, and volatility doesn't matter if you are using it as a currency because then you're not holding enough of it for a long enough period of time to be exposed to a major change in value.

With a MLM scam the value doesn't just have volatility, when you run out of suckers the value crashes to zero forever. With cryptocurrency the speculators can lose their shirts and at the end of the day you can still buy Bitcoin with cash and then use it to pay for a VPN.