The ozone hole above Antarctica has grown to three times the size of Brazil • Hacker News Board

Re: The ozone hole above Antarctica has grown to three times the size of Brazil

#21

Post by k_roy » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 7:22 PM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #8

doublerabbit wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if we can survive the next thirty years, we're good. I can barely look forward to the next five. Edit: Woah. Humor doesn't translate well on this site doesn't it? I'm not saying the world is ending. I'm just saying with the next five years it looks bloody bleak, at least for me, turning 40 doesn't look fun. With wars, environmental mess going on; the world looks very dystopian to the vision where it could be utopi…

This sort of ridiculous, silly rhetoric needs to end. It's not just unproductive, it's counter-productive. "ThE wOrLd Is EnDiNg!" is such a tired line, used by religious fanatics since the beginning of time. Modern-day climate activism has indeed become it's own sort of religion, complete with the same sort of doom-and-gloom "repent now before it's too late" rhetoric and increasingly not based on facts or science but…

> We just don't need the sensationalism - it turns people off and away from all the silliness.

And flat out ignoring it turns you into a Republican, and clearly hasn't accomplished anything so far.

You can't complain about say, food prices, and also not recognize how the weather in the last few decades is a contributor to food yields.

But no, expensive food prices is the President's fault (either current or prior), and talking about it is sensationalism.

Re: The ozone hole above Antarctica has grown to three times the size of Brazil

#22

Post by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 7:23 PM UTC

diggan wrote: post #10

neves wrote: post #6

If you don't know: Brazil is bigger than mainland USA. USA is bigger due to Alaska.

Couldn't the US also be bigger because of the 10 states most to the east or whatever? Why specifically Alaska?

In addition to other reasons, Alaska was accepted as a state either last or second-last -- I remember in the same year as Hawaii but I don't know if one was officially accepted before the other. I suspect that history would cause people in older generations to think of Alaska when there's a state to arbitrarily drop from some calculation and younger generations would mimic that tendency.

Re: The ozone hole above Antarctica has grown to three times the size of Brazil

#23

Post by Alupis » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 7:25 PM UTC

jplusequalt wrote: post #18

Alupis wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of ridiculous, silly rhetoric needs to end. It's not just unproductive, it's counter-productive. "ThE wOrLd Is EnDiNg!" is such a tired line, used by religious fanatics since the beginning of time. Modern-day climate activism has indeed become it's own sort of religion, complete with the same sort of doom-and-gloom "repent now before it's too late" rhetoric and increasingly not based on facts or science but…

I agree, but people have been ringing the bells about climate change for 40 years. When will we actually do something about it? I think the increased sensationalism is, at the very least, a sign that people are becoming afraid about our lack of action.

This is false dichotomy. We are doing things about it - but those things take time to mature and become ready. The Zealots just cannot fathom things not being good enough to act catastrophically right now.

We simply are not ready yet to ditch fossil fuels and go full-electric - among other things. There will be a day, yes, and that day might be within our lifetimes (hopefully), but forcing it right now when it's clearly not ready is so incomprehensibly short-sighted that it borders on insanity. We cannot even keep the lights on year-round as it is.

Imaging going full-eclectic everything today. The amount of pain the nation would feel would lead to an irreversible backwards slide of all the progress that's been made. It would set the climate activist agenda back decades.

My point is, the cooler heads need to prevail here. We are marching ever-towards a cleaner future - we just aren't there yet. We need to stop the silly posturing and tribal signals, such as plastic straw bans and what-not, and focus on what actually matters... and not force it until it's actually ready.

Re: The ozone hole above Antarctica has grown to three times the size of Brazil

#24

Post by bawolff » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 7:30 PM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #8

doublerabbit wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if we can survive the next thirty years, we're good. I can barely look forward to the next five. Edit: Woah. Humor doesn't translate well on this site doesn't it? I'm not saying the world is ending. I'm just saying with the next five years it looks bloody bleak, at least for me, turning 40 doesn't look fun. With wars, environmental mess going on; the world looks very dystopian to the vision where it could be utopi…

This sort of ridiculous, silly rhetoric needs to end. It's not just unproductive, it's counter-productive. "ThE wOrLd Is EnDiNg!" is such a tired line, used by religious fanatics since the beginning of time. Modern-day climate activism has indeed become it's own sort of religion, complete with the same sort of doom-and-gloom "repent now before it's too late" rhetoric and increasingly not based on facts or science but…

Especially because we are talking about the ozone layer not climate change.

The ozone layer is in the process of being fixed. It is not going to kill us (anymore than the increased cancer has in the past). Yes it would be bad if we started releasing CFCs again, but the status quo on this one is good. Literally one of the best success stories of environmentalism.

The biggest problem with envirinmentalists is there is a lunatic fringe who has no idea what they are talking about spout non-sense, this makes the real issues look like BS too even when they are not.

Re: The ozone hole above Antarctica has grown to three times the size of Brazil

#25

Post by bawolff » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 7:32 PM UTC

wrs wrote: post #12

Alupis wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of ridiculous, silly rhetoric needs to end. It's not just unproductive, it's counter-productive. "ThE wOrLd Is EnDiNg!" is such a tired line, used by religious fanatics since the beginning of time. Modern-day climate activism has indeed become it's own sort of religion, complete with the same sort of doom-and-gloom "repent now before it's too late" rhetoric and increasingly not based on facts or science but…

The world won’t end for billions of years. In the next few decades, a whole bunch of humans will be financially devastated, physically relocated, and made dangerously jealous, defensive, and angry by climate change. Spin it how you like.

Sure, but the original post wasn't talking about climate change.

Re: The ozone hole above Antarctica has grown to three times the size of Brazil

#26

Post by Alupis » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 7:33 PM UTC

maybelsyrup wrote: post #16

Alupis wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of ridiculous, silly rhetoric needs to end. It's not just unproductive, it's counter-productive. "ThE wOrLd Is EnDiNg!" is such a tired line, used by religious fanatics since the beginning of time. Modern-day climate activism has indeed become it's own sort of religion, complete with the same sort of doom-and-gloom "repent now before it's too late" rhetoric and increasingly not based on facts or science but…

> We just don't need the sensationalism - it turns people off and away from all the silliness. By contrast, this is the exact sort of haughty condescension that pushes people further away, often right into the hands of real extremists. The sensationalism is there because the problems of our ecology are literally sensational. Dismissing that is the real turnoff here.

> literally sensational

The zealots pushing the sensationalism often don't comprehend the forces at play - both natural and human-made. It's just religious fervor regurgitated because they passed some sort of faith purity test and were rewarded by other zealots with internet points.

There's conflicting motives here - one that says the California coastline should always remain exactly how we enjoy it today, and one that says all of California used to be ocean floor.

Any affirmative action we take to "preserve" the environment how we like it is in itself destructive to natural forces.

With that said, any human-made actions that accelerate natural forces or create un-natural forces should indeed be minimalized or removed.

The problem is the time scale. Zealots like to scare everyone into believing the world ends tomorrow - just like actual religious zealots tend to do to encourage conversion. If they can scare you enough to join them, they they see that as a win.

The world is getting greener by the day - but these things take time. We're just not ready to have a 100% renewable system yet, but one day we will be there. The incentives to get there cannot be allowed to be fear - it must be logic. A greener future has to be the logical move.

Re: The ozone hole above Antarctica has grown to three times the size of Brazil

#27

Post by postmodest » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 7:34 PM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #8

doublerabbit wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if we can survive the next thirty years, we're good. I can barely look forward to the next five. Edit: Woah. Humor doesn't translate well on this site doesn't it? I'm not saying the world is ending. I'm just saying with the next five years it looks bloody bleak, at least for me, turning 40 doesn't look fun. With wars, environmental mess going on; the world looks very dystopian to the vision where it could be utopi…

This sort of ridiculous, silly rhetoric needs to end. It's not just unproductive, it's counter-productive. "ThE wOrLd Is EnDiNg!" is such a tired line, used by religious fanatics since the beginning of time. Modern-day climate activism has indeed become it's own sort of religion, complete with the same sort of doom-and-gloom "repent now before it's too late" rhetoric and increasingly not based on facts or science but…

If you are over, say, 25, then you know that the last 10 years have been _exceptional_ years for our climate, and that the time for normal non-sensational warnings was 40 years ago or 50 years ago.

Look at a graph of CO2 emissions and you realize that we are in a place where what was alarming in the 80's was the result of only _half_ of the CO2 pumped into the atmosphere since 1900 ( https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions )

And now we are using energy to cover for the effects of using energy a decade ago.

Things are worse and they will reach the point over the next five or ten years that heat events and cold events will become more deadly for more people and the fact that you're tired of hearing about it isn't the problem.

The problem is that people haven't been taking the danger seriously and now it's an immanent and deadly danger.

Re: The ozone hole above Antarctica has grown to three times the size of Brazil

#28

Post by doakes » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 7:40 PM UTC

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #22

diggan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't the US also be bigger because of the 10 states most to the east or whatever? Why specifically Alaska?

In addition to other reasons, Alaska was accepted as a state either last or second-last -- I remember in the same year as Hawaii but I don't know if one was officially accepted before the other. I suspect that history would cause people in older generations to think of Alaska when there's a state to arbitrarily drop from some calculation and younger generations would mimic that tendency.

Second to last: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_date_of...

Re: The ozone hole above Antarctica has grown to three times the size of Brazil

#29

Post by HPsquared » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 7:42 PM UTC

postmodest wrote: post #27

Alupis wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of ridiculous, silly rhetoric needs to end. It's not just unproductive, it's counter-productive. "ThE wOrLd Is EnDiNg!" is such a tired line, used by religious fanatics since the beginning of time. Modern-day climate activism has indeed become it's own sort of religion, complete with the same sort of doom-and-gloom "repent now before it's too late" rhetoric and increasingly not based on facts or science but…

If you are over, say, 25, then you know that the last 10 years have been _exceptional_ years for our climate, and that the time for normal non-sensational warnings was 40 years ago or 50 years ago. Look at a graph of CO2 emissions and you realize that we are in a place where what was alarming in the 80's was the result of only _half_ of the CO2 pumped into the atmosphere since 1900 ( https://ourworldindata.org/co2-em…

It's slowing down at least.

Re: The ozone hole above Antarctica has grown to three times the size of Brazil

#30

Post by Terr_ » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 7:42 PM UTC

neves wrote: post #6

If you don't know: Brazil is bigger than mainland USA. USA is bigger due to Alaska.

For a more hands-on demonstration, I like this little site which lets you move/rotate [0] and superimpose nation boundaries, while adjusting the shape to account for 2D map projections.

https://www.thetruesize.com

[0] Rotation of the last-touched country outline is possible by dragging around the "N" compass in the lower-left.