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"You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

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Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've started referring to this phenomena as "Goodhart's Hell." We're living in a world with quickly increasing complexity. Variance in samples is much larger because our reach in what we sample is larger (we talk to people far from our homes, with different cultures, interpretations of words, language patterns, behaviors, ethics, etc). But we've responded to this only by simplifying our evaluations. We've created mor…

In part it's due to requirements of transparency. If some stranger is going to be evaluating you, a simple way to ensure that you're not being evaluated unfairly is to have the evaluation criteria be very simple, almost to the point of being mechanistic. If you're part of a small enough community it's likely that your evaluator, their overseer, and your peers all know you, so it's very difficult for unfairness to cre…

I don't disagree with this response. It's actually a good one. But I think we need to be really aware of the trade-offs here. My problem is that people use these metrics as if they are hard proof of competence. But the truth is you have to pick your noise: nepotism or lazy evaluation. Either way, you aren't getting rid of noise.

I actually think scale is part of the problem here. In small communities there is more natural nuance and correction as there's high accountability. But with scale accountability often disappear as you disappear into the crowd. And you'll always be able to point at winners and losers to whichever noise you favor. The problem is we're not looking at things holistically and ensuring that our metrics are aligned with our desired outcomes. Instead we often pick a metric because it reasonably looks like it should align with the desired outcome (not proven, just intuited) and then just tell anyone that disagrees that it is obvious instead of acknowledging the downsides. Every metric has limitations. Ignoring them is the problem.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#242
post #3

AI Detection services are the oiliest of snake oils. Seems like education is going to need to change drastically in the next few years. Maybe we'll go all the way back to oral examinations again.

I doubt oral examinations come back in general. The undergrad model relys on massive classes, I don’t see how you can do oral exams in those 300 person classes without massive cheating as the first students tell everyone else what to expect.

Most oral exams I've been to have been either a) talk about a report you've written, or b) draw 1 of x (say 8) subjects that have been covered throughout the year, and do a presentation on it, usually with 20-30 minutes preparation. All subjects have of course been published at least 2 weeks prior to the exam.

So I don't see a problem with telling "what to expect", but I do see a problem with 1 professor and one censor examining 300 students for for 30 minutes each.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#243
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a student at a uk university, essays were, I think, written in examinations where one can’t easily use AI, as were most of the other things one would need for a degree. There was a small coursework component of my course and I think others. But I’m still a bit surprised — surely if you are getting a coursework essay from a history or English student or similar, the AI will be a worse writer and won’t have…

I agree - out of the box, a LLM will write an extremely poor essay. But that is not how to use the LLM. WHat you do, is give the topic to the LLM, and say, "with this topic, what are 20 titles that I could have for essays." Then, you pick the best title, and you then say, "I am writing an essay with the title , what should the central argument for the essay be?" You then ask for a list of bullet points for the centra…

I guess I’m just surprised that the result is passable.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt oral examinations come back in general. The undergrad model relys on massive classes, I don’t see how you can do oral exams in those 300 person classes without massive cheating as the first students tell everyone else what to expect.

It doesn’t matter if students know what to expect. An oral exam isn’t the same as reading a written exam out loud. There are a set of learning outcomes defined in the syllabus. The examiner uses the learning outcomes to ask probing questions that start a conversation - emphasis on conversation. A conversation can’t be faked. A simple follow up question can reveal a student only has a shallow understanding of material…

>"a conversation can't be faked"

It can. An examiner questions are gonna be parsed via covert Voice recognition,processed by ai and replies played back via a e. g. small headset(a magnet inside an ear cavity, accompanied by an induction loop wire around the neck(works fine,google "микронаушник магнит" in russian, it's popular here) , and it's not as hard as you may think.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#245
post #169

Comical. Back in the day, when I had to write research papers I would go to Wikipedia by copying the citations verbatim, outline the page, and then essentially rewrite the whole thing in my voice but keeping the exact quotes from the original article since they were cited. At that point, 70% of the hard work is done and you're just regurgitating. Liberal arts is long dead.

Congratulations on... Cheating yourself out of actually researching the material? Of learning something? Why pay to go to school if you're just regurgitating a Wikipedia page? Wikipedia's free.

To bypass the obnoxious prompt HR wheenies use to filter job applicants, duh.

As for feeling cheated, yeah I do feel cheated considering the astronomical tuition for BS make work prerequisite liberal arts classes. But the income i make nowadays covers it entirely.

And I still learned something since I had to rewrite the Wikipedia article, but believe me there isn't anything to be learned grinding away doing regurgitation research.

For the record, college liberal arts don't teach you how to think, they teach you WHAT to think and if you deviate from that you get a reduced grade.

I wouldn't have qualms cheating my way into a degree program either if the opportunity presented itself. In world of cheats, thiefs, and late stage capitalism the honest man is the fool.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#246
post #147

Comical. Back in the day, when I had to write research papers I would go to Wikipedia by copying the citations verbatim, outline the page, and then essentially rewrite the whole thing in my voice but keeping the exact quotes from the original article since they were cited. At that point, 70% of the hard work is done and you're just regurgitating. Liberal arts is long dead.

So why did you study it?

I'm surprised people have to ask this.

To clear a prerequisite requirement for the degree program which I considered a waste of time and money — the forced prerequisite that is.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#247

This is apparently unpopular but my take on this is that if teachers want students to write something on which AI can get high scores, then whatever they're teaching is obsolete and will be replaced by AIs anyway. Of course, not mentioning AI as co-author remains cheating. But I think the best course of action is to simply allow students to use AI while mentioning it (and the prompts they've used). I'm in philosophy…

Maybe it's too early to assume letting the next generation be mentally dependent on AI is worth the risk.

Also, I'd still want a foundation of critical thinking skills to be built inside the brain of the next generation, not outsourced to AI.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#248
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you use Google Docs, the edit history would pretty clearly the progress and different drafts. I guess eventually somebody will prompt ChatGPT in the right way to create realistic drafts and edits as well.

Watch me Place my tablet with ChatGPT next to my laptop and type the essay off of that into Google Docs on the laptop. Whatever contrived solution you come up with, students will find ingenious solutions around them.

Of course. But you also catch some of the fools.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, this is a north-americas point of view where most universities and colleges are "private" businesses.

As I recall from my kid’s college search, the majority of US college students attend state schools or community colleges. While there are very many private colleges in number, they are each usually much smaller than state schools in enrollment. Private schools are also vastly outnumbered by community colleges, even though community colleges are on average smaller in enrollment..

I am really glad to hear that!

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#250
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if teachers want students to write something on which AI can get high scores, then whatever they're teaching is obsolete Doing trivial things is often the first step in learning how to do non-trivial things. No one has ever needed a five paragraph essay. It's a completely artificial construct that, hopefully, teaches people to structure an essay. Electronic calculators have existed for decades but we're still teach…

>we're still teaching kids arithmetic. I remain unconvinced that it's a worthwhile use of time.

LLMs can read from images. Should we stop teaching reading?
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