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"You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

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Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#231

Post by natpalmer1776 »

GloriousKoji wrote: post #102
gustavus wrote: post #3

AI Detection services are the oiliest of snake oils. Seems like education is going to need to change drastically in the next few years. Maybe we'll go all the way back to oral examinations again.

"The more things change, the more they stay the same." When I was a student decades ago it was when they first introduced anti-plagiarism software. We all had to submit a printed out copy of our book reports along with a floppy disk or cd-rom of our report in the latest Microsoft Word format. Almost the whole class was flagged for plagiarism. Of course the school takes plagiarism very seriously so we all had to have…

The best form of protest is often (malicious) compliance.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#232

Post by EvgeniyZh »

ineptech wrote: post #19
HDThoreaun wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt oral examinations come back in general. The undergrad model relys on massive classes, I don’t see how you can do oral exams in those 300 person classes without massive cheating as the first students tell everyone else what to expect.

Is there any value to those lectures, nowadays? I can see a PhD lecture on the fundamentals of virtually any academic topic, for free and at my leisure, on youtube and similar sites. Waking up at 8am to attend an in-person Geology 117 lecture with 300 other freshmen is probably as outdated as a fax machine. Perhaps the next step is, education that isn't based on personal instruction isn't rare enough to be worth payi…

There are many reasons to attend classes (roughly in order of importance)

1. Real life lecturer that can be asked questions

2. Peers that you can meet and discuss both study-related and unrelated topics.

3. Language. Not relevant for intros, but advanced topics can be explained in more than one way, and as a student you not necessarily will be able to map between them.

4. Schedule. Self-pacing 6 different classes for 12 weeks may be harder than it looks. Instead, you can just attend classes.

5. Advanced topics. Online resources, especially videos become scarcer as you advance in your studies, more so if you are not in hot topic (e.g., CS). I still have some notes from classes I took as undergrad as a best source for the learned topics. Good luck finding video lectures about diagrammatic approach to real time dynamics of open spin systems.

Same goes the other way around, sometimes attending class is just not worth it, even without tons of online courses. I learned my E&M by just reading the official book during the lecture time (see 4.).

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#233

Post by antifa »

Miraste wrote: post #21
_yb2s wrote: post #8

I would sue the teacher and school if this happened to me… total BS. Also plagarism and having other people do your work, or even take exams for you is as old as time. How is AI any different? Some trust is in order here. The students are the ones paying to be educated, if they cheat they are only cheating themselves anyways.

>if they cheat they are only cheating themselves anyways. I've heard people say this a lot. It's a very old-school liberal arts perspective that doesn't fit with the modern world. In practice, for most students, education is a third-place benefit of university behind 1. the certificate and 2. networking.

I remember several classes I wish I could have taken, but classes aren't free and I was already overloaded with useless "required" classes.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#234

Post by antifa »

taylodl wrote: post #33
_yb2s wrote: post #8

I would sue the teacher and school if this happened to me… total BS. Also plagarism and having other people do your work, or even take exams for you is as old as time. How is AI any different? Some trust is in order here. The students are the ones paying to be educated, if they cheat they are only cheating themselves anyways.

That's a waste of your time and your money. When you consult with your lawyer they're going to point out the Code of Student Conduct you agreed to that stipulates how automated tools are being used to detect plagiarism - tools that have been in place and in use for over ten years at this point. If anything, the new generation of AI tools should reduce the false positives. As another commenter here noted, even humans…

> If anything, the new generation of AI tools should reduce the false positives.

Anecdotes I've heard put the new "AI detecting AI-written"'s accuracy at worse than a coin flip.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#235

Post by Tanoc »

vineyardmike wrote: post #208
nicbou wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I don't understand is that despite automating more and more of the work away, we seem to have fewer and fewer humans available for anything that's left. I have to scan my own groceries, I can't ever talk to an actual human at any business, I order my food from a machine. Where is everyone?

As you may have heard, in the US at least, there’s record low unemployment. There’s literally not enough people to do those jobs. It’s complex why… 1. Demographic changes means more retirees, and smaller workforce. Literally less people to go around. 2. With low unemployment, everyone’s doing something else. Something harder to automate, or otherwise more valuable. It’s not like people are sitting around unemployed (…

It's not just that people are going for "better" jobs to avoid the lowest of low tier schlock jobs. It's that a dedicated chunk of those jobs refuse to hire because the employers are trying to downsize that part of their overall workforce and thus reduce costs. An example of this has been the rail shortage, where despite needing twice as many workers as they actually have in order to keep things from collapsing the rail companies are ignoring the collapse and trying to cut fifty or even hundred car trains down to single man crews.

You also cannot trust the Department Of Labor's official statistics by themselves since there's multiple ways that the U.S. government covers up actual unemployment numbers. For example stay at home parents aren't included in the unemployment statistic even if they worked previous to that situation. People who have been unemployed for more than a year are not included. People on disability but who are in an employable state are not included. Gig workers such as GrubHub drivers are not included. Certain methods of self-employment such as traveling musicians are are not included. They pulled this trick a decade ago and they're doing it again to try and prevent another panic. The one difference this time is that instead of people losing a single full-time job like they did in 2008, many are now working multiple part-times and thus inflating the employment statistic slightly since technically they're never unemployed.

Then there's the gap that happens for employees. If someone has a part-time job and gets scheduled from noon to nine for closing back to back for four days and then gets nothing for the next three days that means they're not getting paid the equivalent of a full-time job despite possibly working just as many if not more hours. When you have lulls like this you need a second part-time job to fill them in, leading to things like ten percent of the current counted national workforce having at least two jobs. But many part-time jobs in retail and services want to monopolize the person's time since scheduling is based on the employer's availability and not the employee's, meaning that sometimes the employee will have to purposely dedicate days of their week to waiting in case either job calls them in. If the person doesn't have a free day and are called in while working one of their two jobs, they may be fired from the other job. When enough places and people have an incongruent schedule like this places run short staffed and the person is still wasting a day or maybe more idle. Then there's the other half of that coin of scheduling abuse, the supposed part-time job that uses that flexible scheduling to transform into a full-time job. I know that Wal-Mart will schedule you for no more than thirty hours a week and will stack your shifts back to back, sometimes with as little as eight hours in-between, just so they have enough leftover hours in your schedule that they can call you back to cover someone without pushing you into full-time or paying overtime. This makes working for Wal-Mart hell because you're rushed and then all but told to be on standby, giving you very little time for things like other jobs, appointments, household chores, and even self care. The end result of being yanked between two part-times or being held hostage by a full-time masquerading as a part-time is that eventually the potential employee gets cynical and stops applying for that kind of work entirely.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#236

Post by Ekaros »

slaymaker1907 wrote: post #121
HDThoreaun wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt oral examinations come back in general. The undergrad model relys on massive classes, I don’t see how you can do oral exams in those 300 person classes without massive cheating as the first students tell everyone else what to expect.

You're right about oral examinations, but written _proctored_ exams would also solve a lot of these problems, particularly if you require it to be handwritten. Having take home essays be handwritten would also help deter using AI by making it much more inconvenient to use compared to just doing the assignment in the first place.

Going back to handwritten exams might be a solution. It is known to scale well and there is still enough expertise running them on this level left.

Having locked down thin-clients does not scale well enough to these sizes. Specially when there is usually multiple concurrent exams running at same time. On small scale it could be solution. A screen, keyboard and mouse with locked down thin client and simple editor.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#237

Post by Ekaros »

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #138
specproc wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm assuming this is America? 300 person classes is insane, particular how much debt's involved. I've studied in the UK and EU, and I don't think I've ever been in a class larger than 40.

I have a Dutch CS degree, we had about 200 new freshmen every year. 40 seems excessively low for popular degrees.

Similar in Finland. Courses like math and physics which were required were common for more than one program. Thus even if programs were small these first classes ended up being massive. And there were actually multiple of those classes even then between multiple Departments...

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#238

Post by Ekaros »

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #218
Gigachad wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lmao, and then find that the whole class has a discord group for exchanging answers.

Being kicked out of the science school and into the business school is a pretty huge punishment that late in the game, for negligible reward: "Oooh, I aced my Particle Physics final". It was just easier to do the test honestly, and lick your wounds later.

I think later students get in degrees less issues there will be. It will be the first exams and some after them that have most cheating.
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