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"You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

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Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#211

Post by letrowekwel »

b112 wrote: post #167
nicbou wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I don't understand is that despite automating more and more of the work away, we seem to have fewer and fewer humans available for anything that's left. I have to scan my own groceries, I can't ever talk to an actual human at any business, I order my food from a machine. Where is everyone?

The boomers are retiring. Yes, really, that's what's happening. And it is going to get far, far worse.

The boomers are retiring, and the US economy is strong. Here in EU boomers are also retiring, but many countries still have high youth unemployment, and there is no real worker shortage even if businesses like to complain about one.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#212

Post by analog31 »

Miraste wrote: post #101
analog31 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If students believe that these are their only options, they are either tragically misled, or misleading themselves.

I don't follow. Could you expand on that?

I perceive a widespread, cynical belief that the primary purposes of higher education are things like signaling, credentials, and networking. Students who accept this belief are whom I refer to as tragically misled. It's not unthinkable that they're in the majority. On the other hand, I think a fructifying education is up for grabs at virtually any college.

I told my kids that a large state university is like a tiny elite academy, hidden in plain sight within a giant party school.

Don't get me wrong, I know many people had bad college experiences, and that higher education is ripe for reform.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#213

Post by Gigachad »

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #203
RandomLensman wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't just things were people sit in a room without or limited tools to write the exam work, too?

Or you can just trust your students. Most upper-division courses I took at university gave take-home exams. "Here's the test, come back with it in a couple days, don't talk about your answers with other students".

lmao, and then find that the whole class has a discord group for exchanging answers.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#214

Post by slaymaker1907 »

xena wrote: post #149
slaymaker1907 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right about oral examinations, but written _proctored_ exams would also solve a lot of these problems, particularly if you require it to be handwritten. Having take home essays be handwritten would also help deter using AI by making it much more inconvenient to use compared to just doing the assignment in the first place.

The kids have already made workarounds: https://youtube.com/shorts/Xt0VjT_zLZE

That's a workaround for requiring homework to be handwritten, but I think it's not a big deal since there's already a workaround of just writing whatever ChatGPT spits out. That is why I mentioned it only as a deterrent against using ChatGPT for plagiarism. Such a solution doesn't compromise proctored exams at all.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#215

Post by bsder »

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #190
csours wrote: post #133

It feels more and more like we need to rethink what scoring schoolwork means. Worksheets and exams can show how familiar you are with the material, or they can be gamed or useless in some other way. But the best they can ever do is show familiarity. What I really want as a consumer of someone's grade or academic history is how well they WORK in the subject area, along with how well they work with other people, not ju…

One of the best professors I ever had took a radically different approach to grading than I've seen anywhere else but history books: he gave you a grade based on his perception of your understanding of the material. He graded assignments and exams, out of a courtesy to those who needed a numeric style of feedback, but there was no set way to translate your total scores on assignments into your final grade in the cour…

> One of the best professors I ever had took a radically different approach to grading than I've seen anywhere else but history books: he gave you a grade based on his perception of your understanding of the material.

This is fine--until the professor doesn't like you, personally.

You would have to give students much more flexibility to drop courses (basically up to almost the end of class) to avoid the social failure scenarios.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#216

Post by faeriechangling »

amalcon wrote: post #141
slaymaker1907 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right about oral examinations, but written _proctored_ exams would also solve a lot of these problems, particularly if you require it to be handwritten. Having take home essays be handwritten would also help deter using AI by making it much more inconvenient to use compared to just doing the assignment in the first place.

I went to high school (secondary school) back when it was pretty normal to forbid students from typing assignments because "not everyone has a computer". I happen to be personally responsible, via my terrible handwriting, for at least two teachers dropping that policy. At least one other just gave me a specific exception in the name of "accessibility".

They did for me as well (dysgraphia is the technical word). They made me practice handwriting after class and I think all the times I resultingly burst into tears because my wrist hurt made them take pity on me.

For how much schools talk about how useful handwriting is at memorisation and such - I seldom see anybody in the working world pulling out some paper and handwriting notes. Schools seem to care more about teaching you to pass closed-book tests than they do about teaching you useful skills like how to create high quality, organised, and searchable notes.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#217

Post by beached_whale »

gustavus wrote: post #3

AI Detection services are the oiliest of snake oils. Seems like education is going to need to change drastically in the next few years. Maybe we'll go all the way back to oral examinations again.

They need to be sued into pain. They are part of the problem and are hurting people. People are going to cheat, we know this, it is an incentive problem. But there is no excuse for false positives

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#218

Post by OkayPhysicist »

Gigachad wrote: post #213
OkayPhysicist wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you can just trust your students. Most upper-division courses I took at university gave take-home exams. "Here's the test, come back with it in a couple days, don't talk about your answers with other students".

lmao, and then find that the whole class has a discord group for exchanging answers.

Being kicked out of the science school and into the business school is a pretty huge punishment that late in the game, for negligible reward: "Oooh, I aced my Particle Physics final".

It was just easier to do the test honestly, and lick your wounds later.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#219

Post by singleshot_ »

taylodl wrote: post #33
_yb2s wrote: post #8

I would sue the teacher and school if this happened to me… total BS. Also plagarism and having other people do your work, or even take exams for you is as old as time. How is AI any different? Some trust is in order here. The students are the ones paying to be educated, if they cheat they are only cheating themselves anyways.

That's a waste of your time and your money. When you consult with your lawyer they're going to point out the Code of Student Conduct you agreed to that stipulates how automated tools are being used to detect plagiarism - tools that have been in place and in use for over ten years at this point. If anything, the new generation of AI tools should reduce the false positives. As another commenter here noted, even humans…

Imagine an automated plagiarism detector that functioned by decapitating the student, putting their brain in a blender, and examining the results. Could any contractual release that the student signed make this ok?

You can disclaim negligence, but you can’t disclaim malice or recklessness. You might find that this contract is not worth very much, depending on the facts of exactly how stupid this software is and how hard the school tried to find out whether it was stupid or not.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#220

Post by paulddraper »

shadowgovt wrote: post #162
paulddraper wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're going to lose your lawsuit. A school can assign whatever score they want to an assignment, just as you can leave whatever review you want to a product.

But if their justification for assigning the score is a factual claim that I broke the rules, they'd best be ready to justify that claim or they're committing defamation.

Only according to rando internet comments.

In the real world, defamation must include communication to a third party. Schools do not communicate grades to third parties (unless you explicitly instruct them to).

If anything, leading a bad product review would be closer to "defamation" than this example.

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