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"You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

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Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#181

Post by Delk »

garciasn wrote: post #9

I am an Eagle Scout and was awarded it in 1995. As part of that process, I had to write up a detailed document outlining my project including how it was conceived, the work, and the outcome. It was rejected on my initial submission because the reviewers felt I it wasn’t written by a sophomore in HS. My parents rewrote the entire thing in what they described as “baby talk” and it was then accepted. The irony is not lo…

Not really related, but...

In my country's equivalent to the UK sixth form or later US high school years (ages ~16 to ~18), I once forgot an English as a foreign language essay assignment until late in the evening before the deadline.

Being a somewhat lazy and absent-minded teenager, by then I had also completely forgotten what exactly the assignment was or what I was supposed to be writing about. So I wrote some kind of a bleeding heart piece about the prevalence of violence and war in the world or whatnot.

I was quite pleased with it. Of course it was probably naive teenager stuff, exactly the kind you'd think is pretty smart when you're in high school, but I felt good about it at the time. I also felt the English was pretty good, which of course was the point of the assignment. And I pulled it off in some kind of a flow state I conjured up at the last moment.

The teacher didn't think I had written it. She asked me if I had got the text from some IT firm or something. (This was around the dotcom boom, and I probably seemed like an obvious nerd. Those local dotcom firms had the image of being at the forefront of internationalization and anglicization. I still don't know why she'd think IT firms would make a point of writing high school English essays for nerds.)

It was my mistake, of course, and I understand her suspicion because I turned in something that didn't conform to the specific assignment at all. It's different than submitting work that is actually what was asked for and being rejected for doing it too well. But I did honestly feel a bit bitter about it nevertheless. And possibly a little proud.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#182

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

slaymaker1907 wrote: post #121
HDThoreaun wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt oral examinations come back in general. The undergrad model relys on massive classes, I don’t see how you can do oral exams in those 300 person classes without massive cheating as the first students tell everyone else what to expect.

You're right about oral examinations, but written _proctored_ exams would also solve a lot of these problems, particularly if you require it to be handwritten. Having take home essays be handwritten would also help deter using AI by making it much more inconvenient to use compared to just doing the assignment in the first place.

Literally 100% of my degree's classification was determined in eight, three-hour exams taken in a big hall with everyone else and in handwritten response form.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#183

Post by duped »

_yb2s wrote: post #8

I would sue the teacher and school if this happened to me… total BS. Also plagarism and having other people do your work, or even take exams for you is as old as time. How is AI any different? Some trust is in order here. The students are the ones paying to be educated, if they cheat they are only cheating themselves anyways.

> if they cheat they are only cheating themselves anyways.

If a class is graded on a bell curve then kids who cheat are cheating their classmates who don't.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#184

Post by sitharus »

vkou wrote: post #159
Delk wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel cheated by my school years, because I was led to believe that regurgitation of facts is very important. Which school is that? I guess that's probably true of primary or middle / lower secondary school, but I don't feel like regurgitation of facts was particularly endorsed in my experience at upper secondary level, let alone at university level. There might of course be quite a bit of variation between countr…

> but I don't feel like regurgitation of facts was particularly endorsed in my experience at upper secondary level, In my high school experience, most classes could be aced through rote regurgitation of facts. Math class required another step - identification of which category of problem you have, and rote application of one of a few pre-calc/calc algorithms.

That was my experience as well, and totally ruined my first year at university. The lecturers expected I'd been taught application and derivation of proofs, but in reality I'd only been taught the proofs required to pass the high school exams.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#185

Post by a_shovel »

unsupp0rted wrote: post #120
wccrawford wrote: post #16

When I was in college, they were going to put carpet in the science labs, and a few of us thought it was a really stupid, dangerous idea. We started a petition and asked for signatures at the on-campus cafe. After a few days, the administrators asked us into their office for a chat. They asked us stupid questions and tried to talk us out of our petition. When it didn't work, they eventually caved and didn't do the ca…

Why were they so intent on carpet for the science labs? I mean, why change the flooring type at all?

It's a power thing. Authorities make arbitrary changes just because they can, and exercising their power feels good. They ignore the reason people object to those changes and interpret the objections as challenges to their power and direct personal insults.

Basicly, "I'm in charge" outweighs "this is dangerous".

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#186

Post by em-bee »

pierat wrote: post #56
onemoresoop wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a nightmare is about to start for kids, parents, schools, teachers and so on. Would be easily solved by going back to oral examinations, paper and pen in class essays...

Or better yet, get rid of all HOME-work. Do it all inclass. We train children and up to adulthood that encroaching on time for self is acceptable, and its absolutely not. I remember asshole teachers giving out essay homeworks during christmas breaks and similar, because "we needed to be busy". No wonder why wage theft is the biggest retail theft we have - those utter lack of boundaries are eroded the moment we set fo…

at university level that's not really going to work. you have lectures and assignments and maybe meetings to discuss assignments or present work. there are no more classes like in school. at least there weren't in my university.

you are also missing one important aspect: work is usually 40 hours a week. full time study should be 40 hours too. but at least where i come from, you generally have less than 20 hours of lectures and TA meetings, etc. so you are absolutely expected to spend the other 20 hours in your room or in the library working on assignments. that is not encroaching on your time.

there is only a problem if you spend more time on assignments causing you to work/study more than 40 hours in a week

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#187

Post by _jal »

nicbou wrote: post #111
HDThoreaun wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt oral examinations come back in general. The undergrad model relys on massive classes, I don’t see how you can do oral exams in those 300 person classes without massive cheating as the first students tell everyone else what to expect.

One thing I don't understand is that despite automating more and more of the work away, we seem to have fewer and fewer humans available for anything that's left. I have to scan my own groceries, I can't ever talk to an actual human at any business, I order my food from a machine. Where is everyone?

> Where is everyone?

Get used to it. The emerging model is a virtual vending machine - if what you want isn't there, tough. If the machine breaks, well, sorry about your dollar, maybe it'll work next week.

If you want to talk to a human, start by getting rich. That costs extra.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#188

Post by BadCookie »

tipsytoad wrote: post #88

I emphasize with the student here, but passing it through an ai detector yourself before submitting and keeping a version history seems like an easy way to combat any false claims.

I disagree that it is reasonable to expect students to follow your suggested process. The instructor is being ridiculous here.

For one thing, one AI “detector” will not necessarily return the same result as another.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#189

Post by cafeinux »

linusha wrote: post #5

Has anyone field-tested strategies to fighting allegations like this and would like to share them? Something I remember from a previous discussion around this topic was writing everything in e.g., Google Docs, where there are captured versions every few seconds. The idea being that the version log shows that one did not copy-and-paste larger chunks of the text.

I would try to pass the teacher's message through an AI checker, then answer "Sorry, I can't accept your comment because it was 34% written by an AI, and I only obey to my teacher, not ChatGPT". I don't know if that would work, but that's very clearly the kind of thing I would have done when I was a teenager.

Re: "You have a 27% 'AI' issue in here"

#190

Post by OkayPhysicist »

csours wrote: post #133

It feels more and more like we need to rethink what scoring schoolwork means. Worksheets and exams can show how familiar you are with the material, or they can be gamed or useless in some other way. But the best they can ever do is show familiarity. What I really want as a consumer of someone's grade or academic history is how well they WORK in the subject area, along with how well they work with other people, not ju…

One of the best professors I ever had took a radically different approach to grading than I've seen anywhere else but history books: he gave you a grade based on his perception of your understanding of the material.

He graded assignments and exams, out of a courtesy to those who needed a numeric style of feedback, but there was no set way to translate your total scores on assignments into your final grade in the course.

Exams would be, in a word, brutal, in that no one was expected to ace them, or even complete them. What he wanted to see was that you'd be able to apply the course material to novel situations. He'd meet with every student during the course of longer term projects, just to get some insight into their work.

Ultimately, it wouldn't have scaled well beyond the 50-odd of us were in his course, but it was certainly AI proof.

At the time, I thoroughly enjoyed it because it drove the kids who were hyper-fixated on grades and point grubbing up a wall. Looking back, it was the best teaching style I ever experienced.

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