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Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

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Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America does have big problems with public education, but funding is not it. Even grossly underperforming schools are often funded at per-student rates well above the OECD average and even the US average. It's a frequent talking point in the US that underperforming schools are simply underfunded because they're in poor areas and thus don't get enough property taxes, but that's not what the data actually shows. For ex…

Isn't occam's razor here that, in fact, these enormous sums of money are not going to education? Like that this is all strong evidence of bureaucratic misappropriation, corruption, text book companies, etc? Or at least, I struggle to think of what other reasonable point one could make about the insight.

Sure, there are a lot of factors like that.

- Bloated school administrations and the employment of all kinds of semi-professionals that were not needed or did not even exist in the past, and which are not common outside of the US.

- Excessive credentialist requirements that sometimes actively harm learning outcomes: for example, not only do degreed teachers not produce better learning outcomes, much education science is bunk that actively harms learning outcomes. If you employ only more expensive Master's in Education teachers who you have teaching three-cueing, you end up with worse results.

- Grift and graft where various school contracts are awarded to enrich particular people; there was a video going around of an extremely nice school with a swimming pool, large auditorium etc compared to an absolute junkyard of a school elsewhere, but the nice school was actually built for much less money than the junk school.

- Endless interventions that serve to do nothing but set money on fire, like the fads around filling classrooms with iPads and Chromebooks. All of my children's math education and homework takes places exclusively on computers. There was actually another recent story where Baltimore schools are buying every student a Chromebook. Lots of educators have a sort of cargo cult belief that handing kids computers makes them tech-literate and prepares them to be a SV programmer.

- Discipline. Unfortunately there are some uncomfortable truths that people don't want to address and take serious action to remediate. A few dozen really bad students in a school can absolutely destroy learning. You can find myriads of videos of classrooms where teachers have been forced to totally give up. The only day they even bother to give a lesson is if the worst actors decided to take the day off. Relatedly, in many places, policy is to do everything possible to not hold students back, which compounds issues over the years.

I am very sure there are many more items we could add to the list. Some items will apply much more to some areas than others. Unfortunately there is no one silver bullet solution. The point is that adding more money does not do anything to solve the real problems with American education. You just end up handing more money out for graft and waste to enrich people are not actually making a difference educationally.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America does have big problems with public education, but funding is not it. Even grossly underperforming schools are often funded at per-student rates well above the OECD average and even the US average. It's a frequent talking point in the US that underperforming schools are simply underfunded because they're in poor areas and thus don't get enough property taxes, but that's not what the data actually shows. For ex…

Isn't occam's razor here that, in fact, these enormous sums of money are not going to education? Like that this is all strong evidence of bureaucratic misappropriation, corruption, text book companies, etc? Or at least, I struggle to think of what other reasonable point one could make about the insight.

Yes, and it's highly applicable. But how exactly do you fix that practically speaking? Especially if you are a parent trying to ensure that:

1. Your own child get's a good education.

2. Other people's children also have the opportunity to get a good education?

Your options for solving #1 are in many ways more achievable than the options for #2 requiring only a certain level of sacrifice on your part. Your options for #2 require political action against: School administrators and Education Unions, as well as having conversations like this. Allowing a parent to use the public education funding to choose where their child get's educated is a useful safety valve that opens up the same choices that a wealthier parent has while also adding a useful incentive to a school district to get their act together. If a school district's response is that they need money and you are hurting their ability to improve when more money has not in fact improved their performance in the past then maybe it's time to stop believing them.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#83
Society hasn’t done a particularly good job of establishing the value proposition of school. Very, very few of the US’s cultural icons embody the value of education. The American workplace doesn’t obviously, overtly value education outside of in-group signaling from “elite” institutions, and the American workplace isn’t representative of what it means to achieve success in American culture.

If you look around you and see nothing but carnival barkers being elevated through the ranks of society, then why would you value doing anything other than learning to do that?

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#84

Society hasn’t done a particularly good job of establishing the value proposition of school. Very, very few of the US’s cultural icons embody the value of education. The American workplace doesn’t obviously, overtly value education outside of in-group signaling from “elite” institutions, and the American workplace isn’t representative of what it means to achieve success in American culture. If you look around you and…

I remember the first time a co-worker told me that his kid wanted to be a youtube creator for a grown-up profession. I wasn't surprised in the slightest, but it was odd since that was never a thought when I was a child.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#85
post #71
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey look, numbers that don't mean what the person said. What percentage of their wealth do they pay? What are their effective tax rates compared to the working class? Why are capital gains taxes so much less than most income taxes? Why does our "progressive" tax rate stop growing in the 150k range or so? Which one of those groups can afford lawyers to structure their incomes to pay even less? The rich are not paying…

> Why does our "progressive" tax rate stop growing in the 150k range or so I believe it actually stops at around 700k for married couples and 575k for singles.

You're right, I mixed up when I moved to Cali my tax rate increased, but I wasn't making near there hah!

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#86

My child doesn't see the point of high school, and I strongly fear for their future. Of course there's history, and a lot of psychological damage done by said institution... so that might have something to do with it. High school is an extremely cruel place.

I skipped a ton of high school because I was an extreme social outcast (still barely graduated) and never went to college yet still have a great job in high tech for a fortune 100 so it's not all bad. I believe if you are an autodidact (my saving grace - I read voraciously) you will always have a fighting chance.

But if you're not... or even if you are but you struggle with motivation...

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#87

Society hasn’t done a particularly good job of establishing the value proposition of school. Very, very few of the US’s cultural icons embody the value of education. The American workplace doesn’t obviously, overtly value education outside of in-group signaling from “elite” institutions, and the American workplace isn’t representative of what it means to achieve success in American culture. If you look around you and…

I remember the first time a co-worker told me that his kid wanted to be a youtube creator for a grown-up profession. I wasn't surprised in the slightest, but it was odd since that was never a thought when I was a child.

Adults too. People’s hard earned money being funneled into self-styled “gurus”. That’s them spending their money on “education”, and it’s not to become a physicist or anthropologist.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#88
post #72

What kind of child wouldn't want to get up at an unreasonable early hour, to go to a building designed with factory work in mind, to memorize debatably worthwhile information, in a suffocating environment, around other children that they may or may not get along with? It's so strange to think that they would want to instead learn online, when that's not only possible, but feasible. Let's find someone/something to bla…

Honestly, if they just started school later than would probably help more than any other factor. It blows my mind that people still don’t realize the teenagers are biologically wired to go to bed significantly later than everyone else. Just the other week I was at a combo preschool/parent education thing and they were talking about sleep. The educator complained about her teenagers not wanting to go bed at 9pm and bl…

Pretty much!

I do think that there should be a certain kind of need to learn how to wake up early when needed, but in my opinion, learning that skill is not something that should be insisted upon on a daily basis throughout an adolescents life. That goes doubly when the primary reasoning comes down to, "Well I did it when I was their age, so they should have to do it too!"

There are other practical reasons that could even be helpful in this regard, too: Imagine for a moment a case where there are fewer school buses on the road (due to at least an option to Learn From Home (LFH)), and when they are on the road, it's not during peak commuter times. It's something that could help with things like emissions, and the overall safety of students and drivers. The idea of both morning commuters and school buses traveling around at the same peak hours reminds me a lot of how Moving Day [1] in NYC used to work, a breathtakingly stupid tradition, which apparently was only finally culled due to a mixture of labor shortage due to WWII, rent control, and a shortage of housing.

I do realize that part of the reason why schools start as early as they do is to try and avoid some amount of that commuter traffic, but if that is the primary reason, it then raises the even stranger question, "Why then, are we putting the ease of commuters above a sane sleep schedule of the youth, when their physical presence in an antiquated building is on shaky grounds in the first place...?"

Heck, we could take it a step further and ask even more pointed questions, "What sense does it make for children to be transferred to the care of complete strangers, who then are legally obligated to care for their safety on a short-term basis, when that same child could instead remain at home in the care of their own parents?" It just seems like there's plenty of reasons why children should be able to avoid this dogs breakfast of an in-person educational system, when there are glaring and obvious alternatives.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_Day_(New_York_City)

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#89
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's unfair to say that wealthy parents send their kids to private schools as a way to actively defund public education. Parents are making this choice to give their kids a better education, and anyone with the same opportunity would do it too.

Parents are making this choice to give their kids a better education, and anyone with the same opportunity would do it too. I very much disagree with the assumption that "anyone with the same opportunity would do it too". This is the kind of logic people use when trying to justify something to themselves they know might not be the moral choice, but they want to choose it anyways. Diverting resources, whether those re…

So we need to consider students as resources? That might be a difficult outlook to market to parents.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except that if they put the same money into their public school that they do into the private schools, they'd get even more superior outcomes than they do from funding private schools. No, they wouldn’t. Schools have extremely small effects on student learning, if that[1]. Private schools buy a safer, more class homogeneous environment which is worth a lot but you can get the same effect by living in the right subu…

A great deal of the positive effect of a public school is that you end up with a less homogeneous group of peers, imho. At any rate, I've seen that data and think it's perfectly applicable to what I was saying. My argument wasn't really about the spend on "the school" per se, but more that the resources could be better spent on the behalf of students if it wasn't directed to a private school, whether that's spend on…

While your thought experiment is noble, many parents are worried about violence, their children actually learning usable skills and not just social/political ideologies (not taking a side, but that is a thing now), and being prepared to take care of themselves and family and contribute to their community as an adult. In my experience, many public school systems pay lip service to those things but practically are uninterested in that treating the system as just a jobs program (especially for large school systems) or as a political tool a lot of which comes from the Federal government and changes every few years. It is a sad state but true and you can't reasonably blame parents for wanting something different for their children when all attempts and working through the public school system come to nothing.

You also mention community over and over as if every community in the US is similar in demographics or culture which is also not the case. All Muslim people I know, for example, send their children to private school, some driving nearly 50 miles both ways twice a day (200 miles!) just to do it after getting a taste of what the local public school system had to offer!

My own children all went to public school and if I had a chance to do it over again I would have put them in private school.

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