D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect • Hacker News Board

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#391

Post by HDThoreaun » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 2:40 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #346

rtpg wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a merchant wanted to, it would be trivial for them to give you a 3% discount for paying with debit. I don't believe that a merchant is allowed to do this? Probably very dependent on your deal with credit card processors but my understanding is that the default contract between a merchant and a credit card processor stipulates that you are not allowed to offer discounts to not use credit cards differently. Of cou…

> I don't believe that a merchant is allowed to do this? A federal law was passed over 10 years ago allowing this. https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-el... > A PCN cannot stop you from offering your customers a discount or another incentive for using a certain method of payment, as long as you offer it to all your customers and disclose the offer clearly and conspicuously. For example, you can…

Amex sued the government about this though. Not sure the outcome but it is more complicated than “government banned banning credit card fees”

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#392

Post by shapefrog » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 2:46 PM UTC

marklubi wrote: post #262

jdietrich wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many business accounts have a monthly allowance of free cash deposits, but the standard fee is 30¢ per $100. https://www.bankofamerica.com/salesservices/smallbusiness/re... https://www08.wellsfargomedia.com/assets/pdf/small-business/...

Thanks for the details. While I think it's ridiculous, a 0.3% fee for over $20k in deposited cash per month doesn't sound unreasonable for handling risk. Personally, I wouldn't be banking with either of those companies because I think they just exist as parasites. Find a good credit union.

UK banks are 1.2% for human / 0.6% to use the machine - no free amount. https://www.barclays.co.uk/content/dam/documents/business/Ac...

Consumer banking is a very different beast to business banking.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#393

Post by rtkwe » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 2:50 PM UTC

Workaccount2 wrote: post #379

gomoboo wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup I’ve seen a large grocery store keep business going during an extended power outage with hand-written ledgers and cash transactions. Customers kept coming in to shop despite the outage.

The restaurant I worked at years ago would bust out those old slider-carbon-copy things for credit cards during power outages.

Both my credit and debit cards are instant prints that don't have the embossing those require. Running the old carbon copier over them wouldn't show anything except maybe a vague outline of my credit card.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#394

Post by Clubber » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 2:54 PM UTC

readingnews wrote: post #360

jdietrich wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>From an operational and strategic security POV, cash is a vastly superior technology. It doesn't need electricity, a network of cables, satellites and routers. If the power goes out, I can't get any cash. I don't keep any meaningful amount cash on hand and neither does anyone I know, including my elderly relatives. Most of the stores I shop at won't actually be able to sell me anything, because none of the products…

>> If the power goes out, I can't get any cash. I don't keep any meaningful amount cash on hand and neither does anyone I know, including my elderly relatives. Well, that is well on your single data point, here is mine: I live in a bad weather prone area of the united states. I do not know _anyone_ that does _not_ have a meaningful amount of cash in the house for bad weather. Yes, stores here operate with low/no powe…

I also keep cash around. I always put $200 in my wallet around payday and spend it like petty cash. Next payday, I make sure it's $200 again. I always fill my gas tank at 1/2 too. I also have 2 5 gallon containers of fresh water in my garage. It's simple preparedness that is fairly low effort.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#395

Post by glenneroo » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 2:54 PM UTC

arp242 wrote: post #356

blackshaw wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, is it common in the US for brick-and-mortar businesses to charge you extra if you pay by card? That doesn't happen in the UK.

We definitely did that in the Netherlands when I worked at a computer store. Credit cards are comparatively rare, and while "2%" doesn't sound much it's a significant fraction of our profit margin. On a €600 laptop or desktop we'd earn maybe €50 to €75. The €12 is a comparatively large fraction of that. We didn't actually make that much more money from more expensive laptops, so for a €1,000 model we'd typically also…

The official Apple store in Vienna adds 2% to the price if using a CC (at least last time I was there). Then again I don't know anybody who even has a CC here - AFAIK they just aren't that common and they aren't even accepted in a lot of places (though that is changing). They also don't work as normal credit cards in the US i.e. you don't really get credit, since it auto-deducts what you owe from your bank account during the next billing period.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#396

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 3:11 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #373

blackshaw wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's think about who wouldn't be fine in a cashless economy: * Elderly people who struggle with technology. * People fleeing coercive situations like domestic abuse where their abuser controls their finances. * People with mental disabilities, for whom cash might be the only thing they know how to use. * Homeless people, who might literally rely on cash to survive. * Poorer people who prefer cash because it helps th…

> So basically, I think that asking "why should a business be forced by law to accept cash?" is like asking "why should a business be forced by law to provide wheelchair ramps and elevators?" If you don't think the answer is obvious, then you need to check your privilege. If you don’t think the answer is the federal government should be providing the necessary infrastructure, then you want retail business operators t…

[deleted]

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#397

Post by dcow » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 3:13 PM UTC

nonrandomstring wrote: post #162

Almost every comment is about politics, choice, privacy, rights, markets and percentages. There's a completely different take; Civic resilience From an operational and strategic security POV, cash is a vastly superior technology. It doesn't need electricity, a network of cables, satellites and routers. Therefore cash in circulation acts as a buffer that provides economic stability and continuity of operations. Also,…

It didn’t matter if a blacksmith “forged” a coin because the coins were worth their weight in the material used to make them.

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#398

Post by 8note » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 3:14 PM UTC

nonrandomstring wrote: post #201

yftsui wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cash is a superior technology for security -> Huh? The bullet proof glass cage protecting the cashiers is the “technology”.

That's too literal a view. In security thinking we have to consider the safety of all stakeholders, and the whole ecosystem/collective/society at large.

From a security point of view, you have no actual control over whether plenty of merchants and customers trade using counterfeit money, and so you have to maintain a large set of infrastructure around finding and punishing people who use or accept counterfeits.

You can have all the tech for proving that a dollar is legit, but it nobody cares if the dollar is legit, then it doesn't matter

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#399

Post by dcow » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 3:16 PM UTC

nisegami wrote: post #295

throwaway9870 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you never walked into a store and they said you can't use a CC because their reader is down? It is nice to have a few dollars in your pocket for times like that.

I have literally called ahead to order food then arrive to pick it up and be told that the card reader has not been working all day. Had no cash so I just ended up leaving.

Why not offer to leave your phone number and pay later when the system is back up. The food goes to waste otherwise…

Re: D.C.'s ban on cashless businesses takes effect

#400

Post by LocalH » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 3:18 PM UTC

shapefrog wrote: post #197

bagels wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an element of injustice, the poor and immigrants may not have the same access to banks and credit as others do.

Unironically, those that rage against "The Cashless Society" also rage against "the poor and immigrants".

You would be incorrectly generalizing. I believe cash is a pillar of a stable society, and I also believe that the way most Western nations treat their homeless and poor is varying degrees of bad and disgusting.