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Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

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Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#61
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's unfair to say that wealthy parents send their kids to private schools as a way to actively defund public education. Parents are making this choice to give their kids a better education, and anyone with the same opportunity would do it too.

Except that if they put the same money into their public school that they do into the private schools, they'd get even more superior outcomes than they do from funding private schools. I'm a comparatively wealthy parent, I've bothered to look at the data, and I'm sending my kids to public schools. I really don't believe it's about giving their kids a better education, because the studies pretty consistently show that…

> Except that if they put the same money into their public school that they do into the private schools, they'd get even more superior outcomes than they do from funding private schools.

No, they wouldn’t. Schools have extremely small effects on student learning, if that[1]. Private schools buy a safer, more class homogeneous environment which is worth a lot but you can get the same effect by living in the right suburbs.

[1] Education and Intelligence: Pity the Poor Teacher because Student Characteristics are more Significant than Teachers or Schools

Education has not changed from the beginning of recorded history. The problem is that focus has been on schools and teachers and not students. Here is a simple thought experiment with two conditions: 1) 50 teachers are assigned by their teaching quality to randomly composed classes of 20 students, 2) 50 classes of 20 each are composed by selecting the most able students to fill each class in order and teachers are assigned randomly to classes. In condition 1, teaching ability of each teacher and in condition 2, mean ability level of students in each class is correlated with average gain over the course of instruction. Educational gain will be best predicted by student abilities (up to r = 0.95) and much less by teachers’ skill (up to r = 0.32). I argue that seemingly immutable education will not change until we fully understand students and particularly human intelligence. Over the last 50 years in developed countries, evidence has accumulated that only about 10% of school achievement can be attributed to schools and teachers while the remaining 90% is due to characteristics associated with students. Teachers account for from 1% to 7% of total variance at every level of education. For students, intelligence accounts for much of the 90% of variance associated with learning gains. This evidence is reviewed.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/spanish-journal-of-p...

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#62
post #4

The pandemic showed students that adults treat them and other adults as chattel. The response has been further dehumanization. The older generations who don't have school-age children have been continuously draining education in order to have lower property taxes. The wealthy parents sent their kids to private schools and try to defund public education, actively harming the children in their community. I don't blame…

> continuously draining education in order to have lower property taxes This is so provably false that I'm amazed anyone could have this opinion. The US spends huge amounts on education. More than almost any country. Neither education spending nor property taxes have declined. Government current expenditures: Education https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/G160291A027NBEA Personal Current Tax Receipts: State and Local G…

Spending on the education apparatus is not spending on the education of the child. Local teacher salaries are the same here as they've been for the past 10+ years, while the school's budget has gone up millions. Administration and overhead is a self-perpetuating growth industry. Also renovating buildings, changing standards for buses and playgrounds and such - tons of cash around educating the kids, but still, the teachers and books and such are the last to get anything.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#63
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The wealthy parents sent their kids to private schools and try to defund public education They didn't say sending kids to private school was a way to actively defund public education just that wealthy parents do both which is true. What's your motivation to vote and support politicians that advocate for better funded public schools when it doesn't effect your kids but raises your taxes?

Maybe you'd like to see the public school system improve so your grandchildren can attend it? Maybe you just want assurance that the serfs flipping your burgers can accurately read the sanitization instructions on their equipment? People are all different and their motivations are complex. Not everyone is angling for ultimate personal advantage and maximum externalization of downside, even amongst the wealthy.

Sure, hypothetically. It's just not what I'm seeing the wealthy parents in the town I grew up in doing. Most of them are fighting for school vouchers so they can divert money from public schools into their private schools.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#64
post #4

The pandemic showed students that adults treat them and other adults as chattel. The response has been further dehumanization. The older generations who don't have school-age children have been continuously draining education in order to have lower property taxes. The wealthy parents sent their kids to private schools and try to defund public education, actively harming the children in their community. I don't blame…

So the solution is…not go to school, missing out on basically the main resource to defend yourself from oppression (education)?

A primary source of oppression in some nations is the education system. To think that it's impossible to be wielded against us in kind, at some point in the future, is naive. You might think conservatives are stupid for homeschooling, but it's only a matter of time before the things being pushed in public school are things you morally/ethically oppose as well.

Be the one to break the cycle. Be educated, educate your children to the best of your ability with the fundamentals, and show them how to want to learn more. That's how to set your kid up for success.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> continuously draining education in order to have lower property taxes This is so provably false that I'm amazed anyone could have this opinion. The US spends huge amounts on education. More than almost any country. Neither education spending nor property taxes have declined. Government current expenditures: Education https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/G160291A027NBEA Personal Current Tax Receipts: State and Local G…

>The US spends huge amounts on education... for rich people FTFY https://nces.ed.gov/pubs/web/97916.asp

A more recent report echoing similar findings: http://hechingerreport.org/a-decade-of-research-on-the-rich-...

https://hechingerreport.org/new-data-even-within-the-same-di...

https://www.epi.org/publication/public-education-funding-in-...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/09/upshot/biden-school-fundi...

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#66

- We're 20+ years into a gun crisis in schools, such that "school shootings" are so common as to no longer be major news and are now just a punchline to a joke. No politician in the nation has put forward any serious plan to address this issue, and the kids are hyper aware of this. - There are no real mental health services for students, especially those with extreme mental health concerns. (and even if you as a chil…

No. Schools have MORE than enough money, they're just run by morons that don't spend it wisely and instead bolster admin pay and waste it on stupid seminars by grifters like Ibram Kendi. https://www.newsweek.com/public-schools-have-spent-21m-diver... Just because a social media account posted what they were doing and people got justifiably angry about it doesn't mean it's "right wing extremism". You seem to be having…

> Schools have more than enough money, they're just run by morons...

I agree with you on that? I never advocated for raising taxes, I said "Schools themselves are chronically mismanaged" and that "teachers are underpaid" and they poorly fund their services.

> while simultaneously saying anyone questioning how they're run is obviously a "right wing extremist"

No, I'm saying the people who are running for school boards so they can openly hate all minorities and setup christian-nationalist views are "right wing extremists" -- https://thehill.com/opinion/education/4086179-six-reasons-wh...

These people are not "questioning how they are run" in good faith. They're trying to make schools hell for children to experience (and, frankly, their efforts are working)

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#67
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> continuously draining education in order to have lower property taxes This is so provably false that I'm amazed anyone could have this opinion. The US spends huge amounts on education. More than almost any country. Neither education spending nor property taxes have declined. Government current expenditures: Education https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/G160291A027NBEA Personal Current Tax Receipts: State and Local G…

Spending on the education apparatus is not spending on the education of the child. Local teacher salaries are the same here as they've been for the past 10+ years, while the school's budget has gone up millions. Administration and overhead is a self-perpetuating growth industry. Also renovating buildings, changing standards for buses and playgrounds and such - tons of cash around educating the kids, but still, the te…

All of that could be true yet "continuously draining education in order to have lower property taxes" is nonetheless completely false. If what you say is true then we should demand that schools use their money better, not that we give them more money that they can sock into their as you call it "self-perpetuating growth industry".

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#68
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spending on the education apparatus is not spending on the education of the child. Local teacher salaries are the same here as they've been for the past 10+ years, while the school's budget has gone up millions. Administration and overhead is a self-perpetuating growth industry. Also renovating buildings, changing standards for buses and playgrounds and such - tons of cash around educating the kids, but still, the te…

All of that could be true yet "continuously draining education in order to have lower property taxes" is nonetheless completely false. If what you say is true then we should demand that schools use their money better, not that we give them more money that they can sock into their as you call it "self-perpetuating growth industry".

Agreed on all points. I just wanted to point out that 'spending on education' in a macro sense has no actual impact on 'spending on education' from an educational impact on students and teachers sense.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#69

My child doesn't see the point of high school, and I strongly fear for their future. Of course there's history, and a lot of psychological damage done by said institution... so that might have something to do with it. High school is an extremely cruel place.

I skipped a ton of high school because I was an extreme social outcast (still barely graduated) and never went to college yet still have a great job in high tech for a fortune 100 so it's not all bad. I believe if you are an autodidact (my saving grace - I read voraciously) you will always have a fighting chance.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#70

- We're 20+ years into a gun crisis in schools, such that "school shootings" are so common as to no longer be major news and are now just a punchline to a joke. No politician in the nation has put forward any serious plan to address this issue, and the kids are hyper aware of this. - There are no real mental health services for students, especially those with extreme mental health concerns. (and even if you as a chil…

The opinion piece doesn't claim any of these items are issues for students being absent. This feels like you are trying to distract from the issue with a different agenda.

> The opinion piece doesn't claim any of these items are issues for students being absent.

I'm aware. The opinion piece is missing a lot of the major issues schools and kids are facing right now, major issues that play into why students aren't showing up for school.

Hence, my comment above.

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