Why aren’t America’s students showing up? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#51

Post by chung8123 » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 2:01 PM UTC

bannedbybros wrote: post #39

simonsarris wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> continuously draining education in order to have lower property taxes This is so provably false that I'm amazed anyone could have this opinion. The US spends huge amounts on education. More than almost any country. Neither education spending nor property taxes have declined. Government current expenditures: Education https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/G160291A027NBEA Personal Current Tax Receipts: State and Local G…

>The US spends huge amounts on education... for rich people FTFY https://nces.ed.gov/pubs/web/97916.asp

That is from 1996. Not sure that is why all of the sudden kids aren't attending school.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#52

Post by soco » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 2:02 PM UTC

mcntsh wrote: post #20

thrxio wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealthy people don't like to pay taxes which funds the public education

According to the 2020 IRS tax report, the top 1% of American earners pay 42% of all income taxes, the top 10% of earners pay 74%. https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1304.pdf In California, property tax revenue has been increasing steadily YoY... a $3.2Bn increase in 2020 alone. https://www.boe.ca.gov/legdiv/2021-2022/pub306.pdf

For a different view under the line, check this calculator to see how much less the wealthy are taxed nowadays compared to pretty much any time last century except the wild 30s. All that money is not going into education, roads, healthcare, you name it anymore, an entire system of public funding collapses.

https://qz.com/74271/income-tax-rates-since-1913

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#53

Post by simonsarris » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 2:04 PM UTC

bannedbybros wrote: post #39

simonsarris wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> continuously draining education in order to have lower property taxes This is so provably false that I'm amazed anyone could have this opinion. The US spends huge amounts on education. More than almost any country. Neither education spending nor property taxes have declined. Government current expenditures: Education https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/G160291A027NBEA Personal Current Tax Receipts: State and Local G…

>The US spends huge amounts on education... for rich people FTFY https://nces.ed.gov/pubs/web/97916.asp

That's from 1996 and definitely not true today. The $$ numbers there are also hilariously low now. Compare them to:

https://www.aaastateofplay.com/school-districts-ranked-by-th...

Especially in inner cities, many of the better performing school districts spend far less than the places serving poor communities. Camden NJ is one of the highest spenders, so are a lot of city schools in Illinois. Famously "good" schools, like Stuyvesant which spends about $17,000 per student, don't even make the list. It's far below the average for NY!

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#54

Post by chung8123 » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 2:06 PM UTC

IggleSniggle wrote: post #35

mcntsh wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's unfair to say that wealthy parents send their kids to private schools as a way to actively defund public education. Parents are making this choice to give their kids a better education, and anyone with the same opportunity would do it too.

Except that if they put the same money into their public school that they do into the private schools, they'd get even more superior outcomes than they do from funding private schools. I'm a comparatively wealthy parent, I've bothered to look at the data, and I'm sending my kids to public schools. I really don't believe it's about giving their kids a better education, because the studies pretty consistently show that…

If we do dollar for dollar, spending more money on schools isn't going to help the outcomes either. The money would be better spent on the home life since that is what determines kids outcome the most.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#55

Post by lukev » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 2:07 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #29

lukev wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost-per-student of private vs public education is not an apples-to-apples comparison because the public school system is also obligated to provide transportation and special needs education, both of which are very expensive and neither of which are in scope for most private schools.

The EU and Canada have those costs too... and are still spending way less per student than the US.

Indeed, and it'd be worthwhile doing a comparison. My only point is that you have to make sure comparisons are accurate with respect to scope of services.

Private schools in the US look artificially good in terms of both finances and performance because they end up selecting the more privileged students to start with.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#56

Post by freitzkriesler2 » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 2:08 PM UTC

The unpopular truth that is spoken of in teaching circles is cultural.

America is a diverse nation and the people entering it right now don't value the Prussian style education system we have or more aptly don't see the value in it.

Couple that with public school administrative politics (as in office politics) and you see why high performing teachers flee out of those districts and into more highly rated ones.

Education starts at home and if that isn't there for whatever reason then the whole system falls apart.

What's even worse is devaluing an education to get failing students out the door.

Whether intentional or not the implications are the same. You now have a massive under educated poverty class that can be cajoled by populatists and others into votes. This is how democracy dies.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#57

Post by seanw444 » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 2:08 PM UTC

wholesomepotato wrote: post #44

CHSbeachbum420 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False. Taking tax dollar funding away from public schools only exacerbates the issue. School choice is a scam to fund private Christian schools to brainwash the youth and maintain a conservative voter base

It's like some choice who brainwashes my kids. Are they going to learn about men being pregnant and go to a drag show or that god created earth 5 thousand years ago. Maybe i could even alternate every year so they are "well rounded".

Did homeschooling just fall off the face of the planet? Stop sending your kids to these kinds of schools. Take the initiative to be learned enough to teach your kids at least the fundamentals, and then instill in them the drive to want to learn more. It's made much easier with the advent of the internet.

And someone's probably going to respond "but muh socialization!" In what other real-life scenario are you going to end up with a bunch of people who are almost identical in age, with little to no responsibilities, regurgitating shit with no incentive other than that you have to be there, or else? You don't. After that, it's off to either real school (university) where people are all at various stages of their education throughout their life, chasing education in fields that actually benefit them and the rest of society; or they work a job where there's even more diversity and generally less interaction with people.

Lower school is an alien place to be, and always has been.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#58

Post by DrThunder » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 2:10 PM UTC

maxsilver wrote: post #17

- We're 20+ years into a gun crisis in schools, such that "school shootings" are so common as to no longer be major news and are now just a punchline to a joke. No politician in the nation has put forward any serious plan to address this issue, and the kids are hyper aware of this. - There are no real mental health services for students, especially those with extreme mental health concerns. (and even if you as a chil…

No.

Schools have MORE than enough money, they're just run by morons that don't spend it wisely and instead bolster admin pay and waste it on stupid seminars by grifters like Ibram Kendi.

https://www.newsweek.com/public-schools-have-spent-21m-diver...

Just because a social media account posted what they were doing and people got justifiably angry about it doesn't mean it's "right wing extremism".

You seem to be having a bit of cognitive dissonance going on. You're pointing out that public schools are a failure while simultaneously saying anyone questioning how they're run is obviously a "right wing extremist". How about placing the blame on the actual people running the schools instead of the people who are telling you why they suck.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#59

Post by chung8123 » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 2:11 PM UTC

smcg wrote: post #7

Wow, what a surprise, the answer in the article is to pay teachers more and fund schools more. What do we do if funding increases are not approved? What do we do in poorer areas that have declining tax bases? What do you do in states like Florida where retirees without children flock and refuse to fund education?

I don't see how paying teachers more solves any of these issues: "The advent of remote learning during the pandemic altered students’ routines and led many to conclude that in-person attendance was optional. School districts have eased grading policies that penalized students for missing class or turning assignments in late, further reducing incentives to attend. After years of Covid quarantines, parents are more inclined to keep kids home for minor illnesses or mental-health issues. Technology isn’t helping: There’s evidence that absenteeism had already begun rising in the years before the pandemic, coinciding with the explosion of smartphone and social-media use among children — which increased distractions and weakened students’ connection to school. Those problems only worsened while schools and other activities were shut down."

These are all solvable with parents and policy which should not cost any more money.

Re: Why aren’t America’s students showing up?

#60

Post by chung8123 » Wed, Oct 04, 2023, 2:13 PM UTC

maxsilver wrote: post #17

- We're 20+ years into a gun crisis in schools, such that "school shootings" are so common as to no longer be major news and are now just a punchline to a joke. No politician in the nation has put forward any serious plan to address this issue, and the kids are hyper aware of this. - There are no real mental health services for students, especially those with extreme mental health concerns. (and even if you as a chil…

The opinion piece doesn't claim any of these items are issues for students being absent. This feels like you are trying to distract from the issue with a different agenda.