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Lumber prices down 11% YoY

calculatedriskblog.com

41–50 of 156 posts

Re: Lumber prices down 11% YoY

#41

Supposedly, wholesale chicken wings are lower than pre-pandemic prices. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/chicken-wing-price... I've yet to find a restaurant, however, where menu prices for wings aren't at least 20% higher than 2019 or so -- often much higher. Similarly, I have a hard time believing that lower lumber prices will reduce new construction costs.

Not a lot of people are willing to work in the food service industry in general, nor at 2019 wages specifically, also rents, and real estate skyrocketed. Food costs are generally only about 1/3 of menu revenue, with wages and overhead being the other ~2/3. Profits are generally very thin in restaurants.

Re: Lumber prices down 11% YoY

#42

Lumber prices seen all over the place when I search for various species of hardwood. Is there a standard online retailer to reference?

Not really because its so regionally dependent - prices can vary dramatically within even 100 miles. I just picked up a bunch of of black walnut for $12.80/bdft, but I could get it for around $8 if I drove a couple hours south.

Re: Lumber prices down 11% YoY

#43

For the unfamiliar, a "board foot" is a unit of lumber volume representing a square foot of board with 1 inch thickness. So an 8' long board 12" wide and 1" thick is 8 board feet. Or half as wide and twice as thick (6" x 2") in the same length is also 8 board feet. You get the idea.

To elaborate a little more:

Board thicknesses are measured in the "quarter system" - 4/4 (pronounced "4 quarter", that is 4 quarters of an inch) is a 1" thick rough-rough sawn board; 8/4 (8 quarter) is a 2" thick rough board. As this is rough sawn (super rough and unsightly finish), you usually lose at least 1/8" while finishing the board, so a 4/4 rough board gives you something around 3/4" finished product.

This leads to 5/4 being another fairly common dimension, as you can get a 1" finished board out of it. 6/4 and 12/4 are somewhat common as well.

It might seem like an "ugly dimension" compared to something like m^3, but its really built around speed. Watching someone skilled price out an enormous stack of mismatched lumber (width, thickness, and length) in seconds with a lumber rule is always a fascinating process to watch (https://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/the-lumber-rul...).

Usually the $/board foot increases slightly at higher dimensions as thicker lumber is harder to produce. I got some 4/4 black walnut for $12.80/bdft last week; 8/4 was closer to $16.

Edit: This is also why 2x4s are actually 1.5"x3.5" - historically they were 2x4 rough sawn lumber, but .5" is lost in both dimension when producing finished boards you purchase in the store.

Re: Lumber prices down 11% YoY

#44

Can't wait for another Odd Lots podcast supply chain episode on lumber. Previously (make it a trilogy): * https://omny.fm/shows/odd-lots/why-the-price-of-lumber-has-s... * https://omny.fm/shows/odd-lots/stinson-dean-on-the-lumber-cr...

If you want to learn about the lumber industry and how the supply chain works I recommend this podcast: https://www.lumberupdate.com/

Re: Lumber prices down 11% YoY

#45

Supposedly, wholesale chicken wings are lower than pre-pandemic prices. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/chicken-wing-price... I've yet to find a restaurant, however, where menu prices for wings aren't at least 20% higher than 2019 or so -- often much higher. Similarly, I have a hard time believing that lower lumber prices will reduce new construction costs.

Yeah I agree, it will make prices stay flat for a few years, but I highly doubt there will be a massive decrease in construction cost unless we see another 2008 style economic crisis. Although, labor shortages in the construction industry might make still allow prices to stay high.

Labor prices for skilled labor have increased so much that even when you do the “how much is my time worth” calculation as an overpaid engineer, DIY has become the only way to go. It’s nuts, but a fun learning experience.

Re: Lumber prices down 11% YoY

#46
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the tradingeconomics site for tracking commodities prices. Indeed, lumber is at pre-pandemic prices from 5 years ago https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lumber

Cripes what is going on with orange juice.. there’s some seasonal patterns in the last 25 years, but the last year has just kept climbing.

Climate change comes at you quick. We're well past the point of hypotheticals, and headed down the road of catastrophe.

Re: Lumber prices down 11% YoY

#47
Treating "price" purely as a supply signal, and not as "value" or "worth it" I think it's true the price of lumber worldwide related to supply chain shock, and the consequences for just-in-time dependencies in the building sector.

I am a little surprised things like chip and plywood suffered, I guess when you cannot get timber, you go to manufactured wood (which in some circumstances actually has better mechanical strength, but most people think has lower aesthetics although opinions differ on this) and maybe even as a downstream (sometimes, waste+, certainly different cuts/grades of timber go in) informed component of construction it "costs more" in these times.

The whole Price/Value/Worth thing is really confusing. Timber is amazing. Burying it inside the carcase of a home feels at first glance like "why not something else" but the entire tooling of construction crews can be built around "its wood" not "erect this premade steel form" or "lower the entire wall with insulation, wires windows and pipes into place" as they do on 'grand designs'

The problem really is that price isn't just a pure supply signal. People treat the ratchet up and down as distinct arcs with their own dynamic. It goes up faster than it comes down unless you know something about the future to make it worth dumping at any price. With wood, there isn't much surprise in the future driving price down, only suprises driving price up.

"Building codes to forbid wooden housing due to giant space termites" wasn't on my roadmap for 2024 but you never know...

Re: Lumber prices down 11% YoY

#48
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cripes what is going on with orange juice.. there’s some seasonal patterns in the last 25 years, but the last year has just kept climbing.

Here in Florida, citrus greening has devastated the groves.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citrus_greening_disease

Seems this is could be a direct result of warming:

"The Asian form, Ca. L. asiaticus is heat tolerant. This means the greening symptoms can develop at temperatures up to 35 °C. The African form, Ca. L. africanus, and American form, Ca. L. americanus, are heat sensitive, thus symptoms only develop when the temperature is in the range 20–25 °C."

Re: Lumber prices down 11% YoY

#49
post #38

Always thought it'd be cool if there was some economic simulation game (simcity, city skylines, etc.) that was tied to real life commodity markets.

Would that make the game less fun? or would the economy be the fun part of the game, automating and driving down prices? I think games like factorio, the fun comes from automating and being less of a mental burden.

I was thinking a bit like EVE online or Off World Trading Company but using real life stats.

Re: Lumber prices down 11% YoY

#50

For the unfamiliar, a "board foot" is a unit of lumber volume representing a square foot of board with 1 inch thickness. So an 8' long board 12" wide and 1" thick is 8 board feet. Or half as wide and twice as thick (6" x 2") in the same length is also 8 board feet. You get the idea.

To elaborate a little more: Board thicknesses are measured in the "quarter system" - 4/4 (pronounced "4 quarter", that is 4 quarters of an inch) is a 1" thick rough-rough sawn board; 8/4 (8 quarter) is a 2" thick rough board. As this is rough sawn (super rough and unsightly finish), you usually lose at least 1/8" while finishing the board, so a 4/4 rough board gives you something around 3/4" finished product. This le…

Isn't the loss for dimensional lumber more due to drying than finishing?
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