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Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

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Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#261

Post by _8j50 »

em-bee wrote: post #246
_8j50 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you mean being trapped in a job, that's not an issue often because the pay is bad. The company training you risks your leaving too soon but they also pay you like $30k at most where a college grad would be 3x that. In my experience, college educated IT people pretty much have the same if not harsher time to productivity, mostly because you simply can't teach very specific products and most of IT is experiential, w…

If you mean being trapped in a job, that's not an issue often because the pay is bad no i mean the risk for the employer spending money on training and then loosing the employee before they can recoup the investment.

Every investment has a risk. Lower the cost by paying less during training and try to get them to stay by allocating as much to promotion an advancement opportunities in the budget as is allocated for new hires and treating them well. I have had jobs where I took 50% less than others (even more) and stayed very long at jobs despite much better paying roles because I was treated ok and the pains of adapting to a new company felt too much. They say losing a job or changing jobs is as impactful as divorce or death in the family emotionally.

Another way to look at it is it looks bad on one's resume when you job hop. But also, if training people was the norm, the abundant supply would make it difficult for people to change jobs often.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#262

Post by solatic »

godelski wrote: post #166

A bit off topic, but honestly meeting people at top schools and mid/low ranked schools, I don't see much of a difference except in the opportunities these people have. Whether it is physics or CS, I don't see a meaningful quality difference in their work, only that the Stanford/MIT/Berkeley kid gets more internships and has an easier opportunity getting a new job if they mess up at their old one. I routinely see peop…

I think there's a classic fallacy here of confusing signals with proof. Admittance to an elite program signals (with higher confidence) higher competency, but it can never prove it, largely because part of what determines competency is emotional engagement, which can naturally change long after admission to the elite program.

You would think that there would be arbitrage here on the part of employers - find more people from non-elite backgrounds who are actually competent. And surely they exist, but they don't have a way to signal it. Application queues (for jobs, grants, etc.) are already incredibly long. Good luck finding the competent people in the pile who can't signal it.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#263

Post by m463 »

andromeduck wrote: post #189
godelski wrote: post #166

A bit off topic, but honestly meeting people at top schools and mid/low ranked schools, I don't see much of a difference except in the opportunities these people have. Whether it is physics or CS, I don't see a meaningful quality difference in their work, only that the Stanford/MIT/Berkeley kid gets more internships and has an easier opportunity getting a new job if they mess up at their old one. I routinely see peop…

Same experience herw - I've met Stanford/MIT grads and PhDs that struggled with the simplest things the brand has entirely worn off. I think I'd have an easier time trusting a tier 2 grad who "made it" than tier 1s in general, at least as far as technical competency is concerned.

I've known both Stanford and MIT grads who were top notch. That said, they worked at top firms, so there's some selection going on.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#264

Post by Ajay-p »

Jtsummers wrote: post #59
RajT88 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how it went in Germany. Lots of people are redirected to trade programs. I'm definitely of the opinion that for a lot of folks, college doesn't really make sense. I would hazard a guess that also in Germany, lots of kids who might not be able to attend college are able to, because it is free.

In the US, many trade schools are either private for-profit programs, or part of what we call "community college". Free community college has been pushed for a long time (some states already had it).

Community schools at no cost would be excellent. Not a full bachelors but the associates degree in America, without cost, would at least put many more adults on a level to attain higher education if they so choose.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#265

Post by DrThunder »

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #245
DrThunder wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about the article. I'm referring directly to the comment chain about "free" healthcare. Regardless, taxes are NOT FREE. College will never be free, you can only pass the cost on to someone else. Somewhere, someone in the chain has to pay for it. If someone provides you a service then it gets paid for by someone. If no one pays for it then it's slavery and the people providing the service pay with thei…

Oh, i missed that re healthcare. You are arguing a semantic issue that practically everyone is aware of. "free" in this context refers to the person receiving the service without paying for it, irrespective of who else is paying for it. Everyone knows it's not great wording.

Everyone is not aware of it that's why I'm saying it. It's a deliberate use of the word free to confuse and gaslight people. There are many people out there that are 1 dimensional thinkers and can't think past a few steps. This is why we had a large portion of the population demanding they get their school loans forgiven in the U.S. They're unable to think of the repercussions of totally swamping the economy and the fact that in the end the money will be paid back by them anyway.

I agree that socialized healthcare has its advantages but it's not even free for the person receiving service, they're just pre-ordering their service. Just like I said in an above comment, you don't call pre-order game free even though at the moment it comes at you're not paying anything.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#266

Post by DrThunder »

s17n wrote: post #251
DrThunder wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equity is an outcome. You're suggesting we FORCE an outcome and apparently you don't want to base it on legacy. So, what are we basing the forced outcome on? Race? Victim-hood? Gender? Class? Are lower class people of color more deserving of equity? How do you make something equitable? You need to think through the process of how that works. It's every bit as "fair" to gift admissions to family members as it is to so…

TBH I'm probably fine with any system that doesn't give preference to legacy and faculty admits

You would be, since you can't even define what the word equity means. Emotional idiocy in the name of "fairness" leads to the worst atrocities imaginable.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#267

Post by danielmarkbruce »

DrThunder wrote: post #265
danielmarkbruce wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, i missed that re healthcare. You are arguing a semantic issue that practically everyone is aware of. "free" in this context refers to the person receiving the service without paying for it, irrespective of who else is paying for it. Everyone knows it's not great wording.

Everyone is not aware of it that's why I'm saying it. It's a deliberate use of the word free to confuse and gaslight people. There are many people out there that are 1 dimensional thinkers and can't think past a few steps. This is why we had a large portion of the population demanding they get their school loans forgiven in the U.S. They're unable to think of the repercussions of totally swamping the economy and the…

What's a better way to phrase it concisely?

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#268

Post by andromeduck »

m463 wrote: post #263
andromeduck wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same experience herw - I've met Stanford/MIT grads and PhDs that struggled with the simplest things the brand has entirely worn off. I think I'd have an easier time trusting a tier 2 grad who "made it" than tier 1s in general, at least as far as technical competency is concerned.

I've known both Stanford and MIT grads who were top notch. That said, they worked at top firms, so there's some selection going on.

Oh yeah of course many of them are top notch - but it feels like ivy's produce a lot more duds too.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#270

Post by mardifoufs »

esarbe wrote: post #33
itg wrote: post #7

I don't follow the logic the author is using. Let's say we make all public colleges free for students. "Elite" schools will still exist, and top students will still target schools such as Ivy/MIT/Stanford/etc. One look at the people in executive offices or top political offices and you'll find a substantial portion are graduates from elite schools.

Seems to be a cultural issue in the USA, as this is not happening in Europe. Quite the contrary; going to private colleges is very widely perceived as a last-ditch way for rich kids with bad grades to get some paper at least. I guess this in the USA this is an insider/outsider problem where "elite" school insiders prefer other "elite" insiders over other, potentially equally capable candidates.

What?! Have you never heard of "Les grandes écoles" in France? They are not private but they are absolutely worse than the US ivy leagues when it comes to creating an insider culture. Good luck becoming more than an office drone in some corporations there if you don't graduate from one of those schools.
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