Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#181

Post by em-bee » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:28 PM UTC

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #13

Who would oversea the spending of our taxes? There's no responsibility to provide a viable product currently because people are forced to pay and can't default on the loan if the product the college sold them wasn't variable to earning money to pay back the loan for payment college requested. Think a world where colleges have to take more responsibility in making sure the loans they demand can by paid back would resu…

i don't think loans are the problem. quality of education can be measured in different ways. the key thing for me is that by not having everyone pay for their own education, there is no incentive to let them pass just to get their money. quality of education can be raised without risking funds because students drop out.

funding of the schools can be made dependent on the taxes that the students pay once they are working. it's a long feedback loop, but i think it could be the right incentive.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#182

Post by kdmccormick » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:30 PM UTC

jonhohle wrote: post #138

starkparker wrote: post #60

I was in the second high school class to get Louisiana's TOPS program, which at the time gave four years' full-ride tuition plus fees to any public state university with a nominal ACT score and generous GPA requirements (18 ACT and 2.5 GPA IIRC). Wouldn't be here today without it. My parents couldn't afford anything but the closest and shittiest university, with no compsci program (they only had a business computing…

> My parents couldn't afford anything… Not saying its the right way, but grew up without a lot of financial resources, no money specifically to pay for college, and I went to a private 4 year engineering program starting in 1999 by taking out boat-loads of loans. Going into school I had nothing and needed 100% of my tuition covered by loans, grants, or scholarships. I was reasonably confident that having an engineeri…

I am close to people who have experiences similar to your (as recently as 2018). It's true that they are making it work, but it'll be another ten years before their debt is paid off. Furthermore, they all graduated on time, they are all in well-paid engineering disciplines, and they are all relatively free of other situations that cause large financial burden (heath crises, disasters, family drug issues, etc). For any of them, I'm not sure it'd be going smoothy if any of things had gone differently.

Put another way: when everything goes right, you can just barely pay for private college yourself. As soon as anything goes awry, all bets are off.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#183

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:41 PM UTC

jonhohle wrote: post #138

starkparker wrote: post #60

I was in the second high school class to get Louisiana's TOPS program, which at the time gave four years' full-ride tuition plus fees to any public state university with a nominal ACT score and generous GPA requirements (18 ACT and 2.5 GPA IIRC). Wouldn't be here today without it. My parents couldn't afford anything but the closest and shittiest university, with no compsci program (they only had a business computing…

> My parents couldn't afford anything… Not saying its the right way, but grew up without a lot of financial resources, no money specifically to pay for college, and I went to a private 4 year engineering program starting in 1999 by taking out boat-loads of loans. Going into school I had nothing and needed 100% of my tuition covered by loans, grants, or scholarships. I was reasonably confident that having an engineeri…

[deleted]

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#184

Post by AnimalMuppet » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:41 PM UTC

runjake wrote: post #162

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think they'd be raking in less money under this proposal? Why?

Because public uni income now is obscene (IMHO) and under our broken two party system, funding would likely be much less as the parties squabble over funding and making compromises. It would also be interesting to see how the government deals with the often-immense income from college athletics programs (football, basketball, etc).

It would depend on the details.

Let's say public universities educate X students at a cost of $Y. If the government says "We can't pay $Y, we'll pay $Z", then the universities will almost certainly say "We can't educate X people for $Z, we can at most only educate $Z * X/$Y people for $Z". Then the remaining slots are for sale to the highest bidder, who will on average be able to pay more than the average of all X could, because they're the highest bidders.

More generally, those who have to pay for themselves are in general more price-sensitive than those who have someone else to pay for them. That's true of the students who have the government to pay for them, and it's also true of the government who has the taxpayers to pay for them.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#185

Post by OfSanguineFire » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:50 PM UTC

eatsyourtacos wrote: post #67

monero-xmr wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are talking about taking something that individuals pay for, that costs about $40k in total at affordable schools, and making it totally free for as many people who want it. If additional people want to pay beyond the cap, wonderful. But I don’t see how the financials make any sense otherwise.

I'm just going to default to the: how do you think other countries do it? I'm really tired of being told "we can't afford to give healthcare" "we can't afford to give higher education" "we can't afford early childcare" "we can't afford maturity leave" "we can't afford guaranteed sick/vacation" Of course we can. The powers at be don't want that because it levels the playing field, costs them some money, and ultimately…

A number of other countries do it by separating students into different tracks bound for university, the trades, or unskilled labor, respectively, already while they are schoolchildren. Public universities are free or nearly so, but the system ensures that only a portion of society is directed to them. Those who didn't get on the university track while still at school may be able to gain a public university education later as adults, but the process is complicated enough that many are discouraged, or in some countries they turn to private universities that are not free.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#186

Post by pohuing » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:51 PM UTC

kdmccormick wrote: post #182

jonhohle wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My parents couldn't afford anything… Not saying its the right way, but grew up without a lot of financial resources, no money specifically to pay for college, and I went to a private 4 year engineering program starting in 1999 by taking out boat-loads of loans. Going into school I had nothing and needed 100% of my tuition covered by loans, grants, or scholarships. I was reasonably confident that having an engineeri…

I am close to people who have experiences similar to your (as recently as 2018). It's true that they are making it work, but it'll be another ten years before their debt is paid off. Furthermore, they all graduated on time, they are all in well-paid engineering disciplines, and they are all relatively free of other situations that cause large financial burden (heath crises, disasters, family drug issues, etc). For an…

You could means test repayment. That's how it's done here in Germany, only once I earn a good deal I'll have to pay back a small percentage each month. If I never get a steady income I just won't have to repay it if I understand it correctly.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#187

Post by em-bee » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:51 PM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #45

lusus_naturae wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to the top N people in the state, with N being decided by the payers (i.e. democratic electorate). I don't know how it works in the EU, but one issue I see with that it has the danger of permanently locking people who grow up with worse early/middle/high school education into their socioeconomic status, i.e. it would prevent social mobility for those with less resources. Unless public schooling standards prior to c…

In many (most?) EU contries, kids are evaluated and steered into vocational/trades or college-bound tracks at about middle-school age. College/university education may be free or close to it, but not everyone can go. EU approaches to education are more likely to lock you into your socieoeconmic status than those in the USA, where if you are smart but poor you will have schools falling over themselves to recruit you s…

are you sure? how many poor people in the US do actually get into college? i doubt that the number of poor european students that fail to qualify for college is higher than the number of poor students in the US that fail to qualify there. but i don't think we can find a good answer without looking at statistics.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#188

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:54 PM UTC

pohuing wrote: post #186

kdmccormick wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am close to people who have experiences similar to your (as recently as 2018). It's true that they are making it work, but it'll be another ten years before their debt is paid off. Furthermore, they all graduated on time, they are all in well-paid engineering disciplines, and they are all relatively free of other situations that cause large financial burden (heath crises, disasters, family drug issues, etc). For an…

You could means test repayment. That's how it's done here in Germany, only once I earn a good deal I'll have to pay back a small percentage each month. If I never get a steady income I just won't have to repay it if I understand it correctly.

We already means-test repayment in the US, we just make the means-testing opt-in, and have loan servicers who have a financial incentive to steer people who would benefit away from the means-tested option.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#189

Post by andromeduck » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:56 PM UTC

godelski wrote: post #166

A bit off topic, but honestly meeting people at top schools and mid/low ranked schools, I don't see much of a difference except in the opportunities these people have. Whether it is physics or CS, I don't see a meaningful quality difference in their work, only that the Stanford/MIT/Berkeley kid gets more internships and has an easier opportunity getting a new job if they mess up at their old one. I routinely see peop…

Same experience herw - I've met Stanford/MIT grads and PhDs that struggled with the simplest things the brand has entirely worn off. I think I'd have an easier time trusting a tier 2 grad who "made it" than tier 1s in general, at least as far as technical competency is concerned.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#190

Post by rawgabbit » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

hahamrfunnyguy wrote: post #86

I've always had this crazy idea that we could make high school useful again. Run year round and provide more opportunities for swapping in college-level course work or actual college or trade school courses. This kind of opportunity would have allowed me to finish my education sooner, or at least enjoy it more. As it was, I worked full time every summer since I turned 16 and then 30+ hours a week while I was completi…

I agree. High school in America today is full of conflicting priorities. I believe that choice is the only viable answer. Not the two plus two choices we have today (public/charter and private/home schooling). But throw it all open. Each state should publish a minimum curriculum standard for high school. If Big Tech wants to create an online version of high school that meets the standards, parents and students should have that choice. If Big Health Care wants to create a health oriented high school that meets the standards, parents and students should have that choice.