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How China's “debt traps” work

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Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#151

Post by slantedview »

throwaway29812 wrote: post #146
slantedview wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leveraging aid packages for UN votes and political concessions is standard geopolitics. For example, just a few weeks ago, it was discovered that the US leveraged an IMF deal to get Pakistan to back the war in Ukraine: https://theintercept.com/2023/09/17/pakistan-ukraine-arms-im...

Aid for pro-democracy or pro-US policies is standard practice, of course. But has the US threatened countries if they don't vote with them at the UN, or seized their land and/or assets for non payment of debt?

Of course. Even a tertiary google search will get you details, if you care to find and read them.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#152

Post by John23832 »

26fingies wrote: post #82
wheelerof4te wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The majority of new properties in China — about 90% — are sold before being completed." - CNN" Not sure if this is some kind of joke. Many countries have laws that permit selling appartments when they are about 80% complete. Some have lower, some higher percentages. Just your average low-tier negative CNN propaganda, I guess.

i was gonna say - a lot of places you can put a bunch of cash down for an apartment that only exists as a picture on a sign somewhere.

In the west (at least America) that money needs to be put in escrow.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#153

Post by l3mure »

sickofparadox wrote: post #15
hackandthink wrote: post #10

"David Graeber: Oh, absolutely. After all, the alter-globalization movement grew out of a broad global reaction to the Washington consensus, which was never any sort of consensus, but rather, a vision of the world forcibly imposed on the global South through the third world debt crisis. I was involved in “drop the debt” campaigns of various sorts since at least 2000. What got me interested in some of the philosophica…

Of course, the US is widely known for repossessing airports[1], seaports[2], and railways[3], then displacing local workers by flying in your own people. That totally happens all the time - its just that US biased media hiding it from you. The era of this kind of lazy anti-Westernism is over, China is only out for itself, and it will drag countries into its sphere of influence any way it can. "But what about this ame…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_Natural_Rubber_Compa...

> In May 2006, the United Nations Mission in Liberia (UNMIL) released a report detailing the state of human rights on Liberia's rubber plantations. According to the report, Firestone managers in Liberia admitted that the company does not effectively monitor its own policy prohibiting child labor. UNMIL found that several factors contribute to the occurrence of child labor on Firestone plantations: pressure to meet company quotas, incentive to support the family financially, and lack of access to basic education.

> Beginning in March 2019, the Washington, D.C. based Center for International Policy funded an investigation into alleged labor and environmental standards violations by Firestone in Liberia, culminating in publication of the February 2020 report, "A Bridge Too Far: Social and Environmental Concerns in Bridgestone's Liberian Rubber Plantation and a Plan for Remediation."The report details labor rights violations of Firestone's collective bargaining agreements with the Firestone workers union; Firestone's failure to honor pension payments for retired Firestone employees; and, Firestone's contamination of local watersheds resulting in elimination of fish and natural wildlife.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#154

Post by plagiarist »

keeety_ wrote: post #117
plagiarist wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Entitlements." The real parasitic drain on the economy is the large accumulations of capital that prevent the Invisible Hand from manifesting. Being alive is an inelastic good. If people have to choose between starving to death or labor for scrip to use at the company grocery, it breaks the efficiency of the market at valuing labor.

Dollars are the scrip and the government is the company store, only accepting dollars (they control) for the protection racket.

The government is both wasting too much money feeding poors who that guy wants to labor or die, and also at the same time forcing too many people to labor for no gain because of whatever thing you're imagining here.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#155

Post by colordrops »

chx wrote: post #58
colordrops wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" well yes. I am curious why you chose to write this in Chinese which most people here won't understand. Might makes right or might is right is a closely related phrase, too.

Just thought it would spur searches so people could look into it and realize who originated the phrase.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#156

Post by anon84873628 »

acyou wrote: post #139
anon84873628 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the article states, China does not actually invest in these projects. It simply finances them by providing loans.

I'm surprised to see this level of confusion on what "investment" means, on a venture capital related forum of all places. If financing by providing loans is not investment, well, then we are saying that it's something like the article seems to imply, which is that you have to end up with an ownership stake in order for something to be an investment? If you were buying government bonds, would you not consider that to…

Fair point, however I was responding in context of the parent tirade which encodes lots of political subtext, and my use of italics was attempt to suggest a particular practical connotation (investment == partnership) rather than a strict technical definition.

Specifically referring to this line of the parent comment:

>China pays for infrastructure to be built of the type and scale in countries

When in fact China did not just "pay for" these projects. And they are not "invested" in the prosperity of these people any more than the US was.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#157

Post by l3mure »

nonethewiser wrote: post #144
dexwiz wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does have a propaganda feeling to it. I went thru the top 25 YouTube videos for tofu dreg recently, and they had that undertone of hoping for China to collapse. There are crappy building practices in any country. The real question is prevalence, which I can’t seem to answer.

Then where are the videos of western tofu dreg? China has a literal army of propaganda posters. Am I supposed to believe such problems exist and it never occurred to them to push it?

> In July 2021, another occurrence of tofu-dreg construction happened in Zhengzhou in Henan province where the entire city was put at a standstill due to torrential rains and flooding. The city was referred to as a “sponge city” because of how vulnerable the drainage system was. Some argued that the city was not to blame since they were experiencing unprecedented rain levels, but there was evidence later found pointing towards a weak infrastructure.

Damn, sounds like NYC this past week. Here's one of many videos:

https://x.com/OfficialWildX__/status/1707867092832378884?s=2...

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#158

Post by jryle70 »

wheelerof4te wrote: post #75
Animats wrote: post #23

It's not just internationally. China has done that to its own people. Or worse. Look at Evergrand and Sunac. The government of China let developers sell un-built apartments to future residents. The residents not only paid down payments, but took on a mortgage obligation for an un-built building . "The majority of new properties in China — about 90% — are sold before being completed." - CNN. This produced a terrible i…

"The majority of new properties in China — about 90% — are sold before being completed." - CNN" Not sure if this is some kind of joke. Many countries have laws that permit selling appartments when they are about 80% complete. Some have lower, some higher percentages. Just your average low-tier negative CNN propaganda, I guess.

Are you talking about this article? (I don't see a link to CNN's article here)

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/14/business/evergrande-china-pro...

The exact quote is:

"[Then] there is the problem of unfinished projects, even if there is demand. The majority of new properties in China — about 90% — are sold before being completed, meaning that any setbacks for home builders could directly impact buyers, according to economists."

What is the problem with the paragraph? It describes a practice that is common in China but may not be known to CNN's audience. It mentions a pitfall of the practice, which is true and has played out many times, in China and elsewhere, easily verifiable. Nowhere does it say that it's a China only problem.

In fact, read the whole article before playing the victim. Not long. You'd be hard pressed to say it's more negative that a US-related economy news piece.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#159

Post by keeety_ »

plagiarist wrote: post #154
keeety_ wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dollars are the scrip and the government is the company store, only accepting dollars (they control) for the protection racket.

The government is both wasting too much money feeding poors who that guy wants to labor or die, and also at the same time forcing too many people to labor for no gain because of whatever thing you're imagining here.

[dead]

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#160

Post by aragonite »

littlestymaar wrote: post #132
davidsawyer wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure where you're getting this. He has a PhD in Econ...

Having a Math degree doesn't make you a mathematician if you've stopped doing Math since then… That's even more true if, as Noah Smith, you got your diploma in order to become a pundit . From his own words[1]: > Back in 2006, the original reason I thought of getting an econ PhD was actually to become an econ pundit and writer. If anything, he's a former economist (until 2016) who's now a pundit discussing many topics…

Hey, don't knock Noah Smith. He's as much of an economist as Lex Fridman is a computer scientist. Check out his publications. ;)
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