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How China's “debt traps” work

noahpinion.blog

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Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#111

Post by fspeech »

jessepasley wrote: post #59
csomar wrote: post #48

I've recently rode through a Belt&Road project: The Lao high-speed train. In my opinion, it shows the complete failure of the Chinese government. The high-speed train is a reasonably great train that goes through dozens (hundreds?) of mountains and rivers (through tunnels and bridges). It does that while enabling you to work from the comfort of your chair. And while it's not high-speed (as in 300Km/h), it is reasonab…

I had the same opinion when taking high speed train for the first time in China. Many stations seemed to be far away from anything and there was a lot of process when you get to the station. That's not the case now as all of those areas have sprung up, along with convenient transportation via subway/metro to the places you'd want to get to. You can also board the train quickly now. I'm not sure if that makes sense fo…

It's also a financing scheme: hsr developers could get land on the cheap around the stations and profit from the appreciation brought by the hsr.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#112

Post by [deleted] »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #93
oceanplexian wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, there are some beneficial things that the government does. Like roads, police, fire, regulatory agencies; all the usual things that are cited as "We live in a society" line items. But those things are a tiny minority of government spending. The VAST majority of the federal budget goes to entitlements. Another massive chunk goes to paying interest on debt because we spent money we didn't have on entitlements. An…

I don't mean to be hyperbolic, but that's how you get people (mostly children and old people) starving in the streets. That's what those entitlements pay for. Maybe you think that's not worthwhile, fair enough. Unfortunately for you, many of your fellow citizens and taxpayers disagree.

[deleted]

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#113

Post by dexwiz »

mpsprd wrote: post #85

This article makes me think about "tofu-dreg projects" [0] Poor quality construction work prevalent in mainland china. If you look for content with this keyword, you will find jaw dropping videos of constructions workers bending or breaking "rebar" with their hands, Owners chipping away concrete in high-rise buildings like its sand, etc. Of course some of this can be propaganda, but considering it has a local name, t…

It does have a propaganda feeling to it. I went thru the top 25 YouTube videos for tofu dreg recently, and they had that undertone of hoping for China to collapse.

There are crappy building practices in any country. The real question is prevalence, which I can’t seem to answer.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#114

Post by keeety_ »

callalex wrote: post #100
bpolverini wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Government already has a monopoly on force and steals our money under the threat of imprisonment in the form of taxation: Now that money is supposed to be allocated into risky investments for abstract, unmeasureable benefits like "soft power," for the benefit of people somewhere else? That creates resentment here. It also infantilizes the Global South. How much better would it be if we eliminated the IMF, shrank…

If taxation is theft, why don’t you move to Somalia or start a cartel in a remote region of Mexico and live there? Or perhaps there are benefits you are receiving from living with a functioning government?

Ah, the classic "if you don't want the money robbed from your wallet why don't you just leave town."

True colors emerge.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#115

Post by davidsawyer »

littlestymaar wrote: post #71
neilwilson wrote: post #32

The problem with listening to economists is that if your only tool is interest rates everything looks like a loan. No sovereign nation should be borrowing from anywhere other than itself. Instead firms should be selling equity denominated in the local currency for foreign currency - where they need foreign imported capital equipment. If nobody wants to invest on those terms then you have to build the equipment yourse…

> listening to economists Noah Smith isn't even an economist, he's just some know-it-all internet pundit who happened to have graduated in economics a decade ago.

Not sure where you're getting this. He has a PhD in Econ...

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#116

Post by 0xDEF »

beebeepka wrote: post #72
0xDEF wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no multipolar world. It's just the US and China. Their combined GDP is bigger than the next 33 countries combined. As a Danish person I wish the EU had actual hard power but in the end of the day Denmark doesn't have the same geopolitical interests as Hungary, Bulgaria, and Slovakia. In fact their views are the polar opposite of ours.

What do you mean our views are opposite? I am Bulgarian and I very much agree with you that we need an actual European army. Now, you can always assume I only say this because I live in a poor country that everyone pushes around. But when we zoom out a bit, the same could soon apply to the entire continent. We are not united and that's bad for all of us because our competitors are more much bigger and better integrat…

I was thinking in terms of Ukraine, Russia etc. Hungary, Bulgaria, and Slovakia have very pro-Russian populations according to opinion polls.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#117

Post by keeety_ »

plagiarist wrote: post #76
oceanplexian wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, there are some beneficial things that the government does. Like roads, police, fire, regulatory agencies; all the usual things that are cited as "We live in a society" line items. But those things are a tiny minority of government spending. The VAST majority of the federal budget goes to entitlements. Another massive chunk goes to paying interest on debt because we spent money we didn't have on entitlements. An…

"Entitlements." The real parasitic drain on the economy is the large accumulations of capital that prevent the Invisible Hand from manifesting. Being alive is an inelastic good. If people have to choose between starving to death or labor for scrip to use at the company grocery, it breaks the efficiency of the market at valuing labor.

Dollars are the scrip and the government is the company store, only accepting dollars (they control) for the protection racket.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#118

Post by keeety_ »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #93
oceanplexian wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, there are some beneficial things that the government does. Like roads, police, fire, regulatory agencies; all the usual things that are cited as "We live in a society" line items. But those things are a tiny minority of government spending. The VAST majority of the federal budget goes to entitlements. Another massive chunk goes to paying interest on debt because we spent money we didn't have on entitlements. An…

I don't mean to be hyperbolic, but that's how you get people (mostly children and old people) starving in the streets. That's what those entitlements pay for. Maybe you think that's not worthwhile, fair enough. Unfortunately for you, many of your fellow citizens and taxpayers disagree.

It's quite possible taxation results in more starvation than it prevents. Particularly when used to incentive low income fertility and dis-incintivize production and labor.

Re: How China's “debt traps” work

#119

Post by wheelerof4te »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #5
slantedview wrote: post #2

It's worth pointing out that debt trap diplomacy was pioneered by the US backed IMF. While China has been exploitative, it goes without saying, that the US has been even moreso.

Since you went ahead and said what "goes without saying", how about you go further and actually demonstrate/document/prove what you say?

"Confessions of an economic Hitman" is a first-person account of a man involved in these schemes.

As an educated member of a developing country, I know that many so called "foreign investments" from the West are preceded (in fact, it is a requirenment) by huge loans from IMF and the World Bank.

This money is then wired to the investor, who is paid in 10s of thousands euroes for each employee. Every large state-backed loan eventually ends up in the pockets of western investors.

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