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Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

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Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#341

Post by askonomm »

abenga wrote: post #272
askonomm wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did mention without installing a program, and without any configuration.

Is the implicit "… not written by the original OS vendor" at the end of your sentence intentional? There is obviously a program and/or configuration, just done by Apple. Nothing precludes building such a system in other systems.

Yes, the whole discussion is about vertical integration, achieved best so far by Apple. I'm sure it can be done in other systems, but for whatever reason other systems haven't made it as simple and seamless. I wonder why. Could it have something to do with the lack of vertical integration maybe?

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#342

Post by askonomm »

michaelmrose wrote: post #339
askonomm wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your argument is that because the things to copy are few, this feature doesn't matter? Or what? I fail to see how what you say contributes to the discussion of vertical integration in any way.

Not few none. People need to share files, tabs, messages, mails. If you can share the things people actually want shared then sharing the clipboard itself has zero value.

Your response is completely irrelevant to the discussion of vertical integration. Whether or not you find use in it is up to you, and I don't really care.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#343

Post by thomastjeffery »

scarface_74 wrote: post #316
thomastjeffery wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple would still be able to do all of that. The main reason Windows sucks is that Windows sucks . No specialized hardware can change that. The second reason is that hardware manufacturers make shitty drivers; because it shouldn't be their job in the first place. And why is OS X so good? They scrapped the original MacOS, and started fresh with a fork of BSD. None of that has anything to do with monopolizing hardware.…

So none of the fact that my MacBook Air runs quiet and fast running Apple designed processors, using an Apple designed OS, and integrating with other Apple hardware has anything to do with Apple being integrated? And it shouldn’t be the company’s responsibility that made the hardware to make drivers and they should depend on who to do it then?

Whoever writes the OS is in a much better position to write drivers. This is the reason Linux drivers are (usually) very good.

This is also why the current vertically integrated Apple is able to write good drivers: it isn't an isolated hardware manufacturer writing a driver. Because it's all one company, the OS team can be involved with driver development.

The solution for everyone would be to simply publish the hardware spec such that Apple, Microsoft, and Linux devs are able to write their own drivers.

The notion that hardware specs must be kept secret (because driver development is integrated with hardware development) is harming everyone, except the select few who have their own seats in the backroom.

Vertical integration is creating the very problem that you see Apple solving with vertical integration. Unfortunately, Apple is solving it exclusively for Apple, while hanging everyone else out to dry.

This situation is not unique to Apple, which is why we have shitty NVidia drivers in Linux, and why Android hardware support ends.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#344

Post by scarface_74 »

donkeybeer wrote: post #327
scarface_74 wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t say there were “some gotchas” the person defending the open standards did https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37733315 Yes and the phone also depends on standards when it comes to electricity. The fact is that Apple’s work on top of the standard provide a more robust more user friendly implementation.

Please answer the sibling question above, what is the difficulty in answering such a simple, clearly stated question? Why are you refusing to answer that and trying to change the topic each time?

Which question is that? Apple implemented things on top of the standard to make Apple headphones work better than standard BT devices with their own hardware. But they still implement the standards.

This shows the power of an integrated solution. Apple released a better way to pair Bluetooth headphones with their devices and at the same time got the better method implemented across their computers, phones, tablets, watches and set top boxes.

That’s something you couldn’t do with an open standard as quickly.

I pair my headphones to one device that I’m signed into and they automatically get recognized by all my devices.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#345

Post by thomastjeffery »

scarface_74 wrote: post #209
thomastjeffery wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the software team would work in isolation Only if the hardware company refuses to share info with them, which - as you clearly laid out - is not in their interest.

You really don’t see how that would slow things down compared to the hardware and software company working together? I bet you also think that a company should set up a DevOps “department” to increase efficiency

Are you telling me that Apple doesn't have a separate hardware division? I sincerely doubt that.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#346

Post by scarface_74 »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #343
scarface_74 wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So none of the fact that my MacBook Air runs quiet and fast running Apple designed processors, using an Apple designed OS, and integrating with other Apple hardware has anything to do with Apple being integrated? And it shouldn’t be the company’s responsibility that made the hardware to make drivers and they should depend on who to do it then?

Whoever writes the OS is in a much better position to write drivers. This is the reason Linux drivers are (usually) very good. This is also why the current vertically integrated Apple is able to write good drivers: it isn't an isolated hardware manufacturer writing a driver. Because it's all one company, the OS team can be involved with driver development. The solution for everyone would be to simply publish the hard…

> Whoever writes the OS is in a much better position to write drivers. This is the reason Linux drivers are (usually) very good.

You really think that Linux developers would know how to squeeze better performance out of Nvidia hardware than the Nvidia even with the design specs? Nvidia has the foremost experts in designing GPUs and software around it (Cuda).

The software and the hardware teams know the intricacies of their hardware better than anyone and they work in concert to design a better product.

How long would it take the hypothetical Apple Hardware company to release products that the hypothetical Apple Software company wrote drivers for if they were split up?

Could the new Apple hardware company say release the AirPods that paired seamlessly with multiple products just by pairing with one device signed into your account and release a new version of MacOS, iOS, TvOS, etc at the same time? Apple, Google and even AWS (in the server space) design hardware and processors in tandem with their software teams. They don’t just throw designs over the fence with documentation.

> This situation is not unique to Apple, which is why we have shitty NVidia drivers in Linux, and why Android hardware support ends.

That’s a poor excuse. The fact is that Google is just a shitty platform caretaker. Microsoft has the same business model where they make the OS and license it to OEMs yet they support hardware for years if not decades.

Google doesn’t support its own phones as long as Apple. There is no excuse.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#347

Post by thomastjeffery »

scarface_74 wrote: post #346
thomastjeffery wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoever writes the OS is in a much better position to write drivers. This is the reason Linux drivers are (usually) very good. This is also why the current vertically integrated Apple is able to write good drivers: it isn't an isolated hardware manufacturer writing a driver. Because it's all one company, the OS team can be involved with driver development. The solution for everyone would be to simply publish the hard…

> Whoever writes the OS is in a much better position to write drivers. This is the reason Linux drivers are (usually) very good. You really think that Linux developers would know how to squeeze better performance out of Nvidia hardware than the Nvidia even with the design specs? Nvidia has the foremost experts in designing GPUs and software around it (Cuda). The software and the hardware teams know the intricacies of…

> You really think that Linux developers would know how to squeeze better performance out of Nvidia hardware than the Nvidia even with the design specs?

Yes. Even more importantly, they would be able to keep it stable alongside Mesa and Wayland/Xorg updates.

> Nvidia has the foremost experts in designing GPUs and software around it (Cuda).

And breaking up the company wouldn't make those people disappear! On the contrary, it would liberate their work. They would suddenly be free to start making CUDA compatible with AMDGPU! It would be wonderful.

Even if those people kept their work closed-source, just having an open hardware spec would do wonders for nouveau development. Last I checked, nouveau can't even set the GPU clock speed!

> Google doesn’t support its own phones as long as Apple. There is no excuse.

And that's my entire point! Google is bad at handling this responsibility, so let's take it off their hands! The reality is that Google doesn't want us to, because long term support is bad for their bottom-line!

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#348

Post by scarface_74 »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #345
scarface_74 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really don’t see how that would slow things down compared to the hardware and software company working together? I bet you also think that a company should set up a DevOps “department” to increase efficiency

Are you telling me that Apple doesn't have a separate hardware division? I sincerely doubt that.

I am saying that Apple has a software and hardware division that work in concert.

Chris Lattner, the inventor of the Swift programming language and the open source LLVM was once interviewed on the Accidental Tech Podcast and he was asked whether bytecode could be used to allow Apple to switch architectures without forcing them to require developers to recompile and still have native compilation. He made up some half truth about whether that would be possible.

Years later when the S chips in the Apple Watch became 64 bit, he admitted that at the time of the interview, he knew that the 64 bit S chip was on the roadmap internally and he designed the LLVM with that in mind.

That’s what happens when you have software and hardware teams working together. The same is true with Nvidia and the their software developers who design Cuda and Intel and the compiler makers.

There were also reports that the software team responsible for the JS engine in WebKit worked with the processor team and the processor team did some design work around Apple’s ARM variants to make JS pre compilation faster.

This is also the whole idea of VLIW architectures where the processor manufacture depends on a team of compiler makers to ring out efficiencies and they work closely together.

Heck even back in the Apple // days, Woz a developer, designed hardware and software together.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#349

Post by scarface_74 »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #347
scarface_74 wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whoever writes the OS is in a much better position to write drivers. This is the reason Linux drivers are (usually) very good. You really think that Linux developers would know how to squeeze better performance out of Nvidia hardware than the Nvidia even with the design specs? Nvidia has the foremost experts in designing GPUs and software around it (Cuda). The software and the hardware teams know the intricacies of…

> You really think that Linux developers would know how to squeeze better performance out of Nvidia hardware than the Nvidia even with the design specs? Yes. Even more importantly, they would be able to keep it stable alongside Mesa and Wayland/Xorg updates. > Nvidia has the foremost experts in designing GPUs and software around it (Cuda). And breaking up the company wouldn't make those people disappear! On the contr…

> And breaking up the company wouldn't make those people disappear! On the contrary, it would liberate their work. They would suddenly be free to start making CUDA compatible with AMDGPU! It would be wonderful.

The chip designers at NVidia work alongside the software people iteratively. They don’t just design the perfect chip and throw it over the fence.

Cuda isn’t just great (I’m not in that space, it might suck. I honestly don’t know) software that could be ported to any architecture. Cuda is written to work on a specific architecture both the hardware and the software inform each other.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#350

Post by abenga »

scarface_74 wrote: post #298
abenga wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably true. The whole vertical integration does rub me the wrong way though, it's just uncomfortable to have one company own so much of my personal computing infrastructure, especially one that is so unfriendly to "tinkerers" like me.

Yes because the 10% market share that Apple has in computers is really worrying…

If I buy an Apple phone, tablet, and computer, that will be 100% of my computing infra, which is all that matters to me.
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