Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It • Hacker News Board

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#781

Post by somsak2 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:10 PM UTC

Ferret7446 wrote: post #573

runako wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Walking over and talking to someone is still far superior to any online communication. This is an example of a local maximum. This form of communication is better for the person doing the walking, but worse when looked at through most other frames: - worse for the person being asked, who was interrupted - worse for the people who weren't privy to that conversation but perhaps could have learned or contributed excep…

> - worse for the person being asked, who was interrupted Generally, only in terms of personal output. I find that the organization benefits overall. Of course, this is problematic when performance/compensation is tied strictly to personal output, but that is a separate discussion > - worse for the people who weren't privy to that conversation but perhaps could have learned or contributed except that they were OOO th…

> I find that the organization benefits overall.

Can you speak to how that is measured? I find these kinds of claims very difficult to support with any kind of actual data.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#782

Post by somsak2 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:11 PM UTC

grumblingdev wrote: post #31

TerrifiedMouse wrote: post #11

There are so many “habits” left over from industrial work. On an assembly line everyone needed to be in sync but this generally isn’t true for most office work. You need to be present at the factory to do the work, hasn’t been true for office work for awhile now. Yet we still operate synchronously. Everyone commutes through traffic/crowded public transport and risk catching the latest novel virus, to arrive at work a…

> an assembly line Now imagine working on an assembly line on your feet all day versus your office day job. The people on the assembly line would look at you like the most spoilt people in the world. I personally hated going into the office, but the morale effect is real. I think the main thing is people cannot be trusted to honestly tell you if they work better from the office. It's a nicer life working from home bu…

> on your feet all day versus your office day job

I have a standing desk, so I am on my feet all day.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#783

Post by Pr0ject217 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:12 PM UTC

I will likely never go back to an office - it would have to be so ridiculously lucrative for me to consider it that it's basically never going to happen.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#784

Post by somsak2 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:12 PM UTC

grumblingdev wrote: post #435

TerrifiedMouse wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people on the assembly line would look at you like the most spoilt people in the world. It's not a matter of being spoiled or not. I'm talking about what is necessary to get the job done and the elimination of redundant rules that serve no purpose.

"get the job done" is usually poorly defined.

Then we should demand better definitions rather than forcing a change on which we have no data is actually better.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#785

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:17 PM UTC

Two9A wrote: post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

[deleted]

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#786

Post by paulcole » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:20 PM UTC

fullshark wrote: post #668

paulcole wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they want that collective environment that they thrived in pre-pandemic Is there an issue with this? The pro-remote people want the environment they thrive in and the pro-office people want the environment they thrive in.

The issue is they require their co-workers to do something they don't want to do. It's not a purely individualized desire.

Agreed. As long as we’re also clear that this applies to anyone who wants to work at a fully remote company. And as long as we’re clear that there’s nothing wrong with this.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#787

Post by paulcole » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:23 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #652

paulcole wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that for a US-based startup, the "hiring talent from anywhere" is easier said than done. You've got to register your business in every state you have somebody working, get unemployment insurance and workers comp set up there, make sure you understand the local labor laws, etc., etc., etc. That's not even considering hiring outside the US. It's a total pain in the butt and may not be worth it for a small comp…

Oh I know. And I hate it. I run a remote company and have dealt with it. I wish there was a company that existed to handle this for me. I just tell them I want to hire someone in state XXX and they set me up with whatever I need in that state. There are a bunch of companies that will get me 1/2 way (set up payroll but then tell me I'm on my own for insurance, for example). But still, for the right person, it's worth…

Yeah it’s nuts. I’m up to being open to hiring in about 15 states but have gotten set up in 3 so far.

If you’re willing to give up a ton of control, a PEO seems to be the “best” option but I haven’t found one I fully trust.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#788

Post by JSavageOne » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:24 PM UTC

The_Colonel wrote: post #770

JSavageOne wrote: post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a code refactoring can increase dev productivity and shipping speed, then that is certainly worth something - though obviously can be hard to measure. Infrastructure updates can directly reduce server costs, latency, or have other benefits. For tasks that aren't straightforward to measure impact on bottom line, perhaps their impact can be approximated via product owners setting bounties on them. In any case as imp…

> If a code refactoring can increase dev productivity and shipping speed, then that is certainly worth something The value of that is being distributed in very small increments over the whole dev team in the span of years. It's impossible to measure. > Infrastructure updates can directly reduce server costs, latency, or have other benefits. Well, most of the work is in that "other benefits". Very difficult to measure…

> With your incentive model it has 0 priority

This is just factually incorrect as I've already explained, such as via the ability to provide bounties on technical debt reduction. Also an incentive doesn't mean that one has to chase that incentive, or that all work must revolve around those incentives.

In any case, it's already the situation at most companies that they tend to prioritize shipping new features and bug fixes above code refactoring. As a developer myself, I'm simply suggesting a way in which employers can further motivate employees and promote intrapraneurship by more directly compensation employees for their contributions. If you're happy with the status quo, all the power to you.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#789

Post by paulcole » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:27 PM UTC

Yizahi wrote: post #143

mattlondon wrote: post #10

Its only bullshit if you want to work remote. I want to be in the office. Working remote is the most stressful thing I've ever done.

Working in office can be good. But the question is - are you getting paid 20% more for the RTO job compared to the remote? To compensate for the 20% more time wasted in useless transit (2 more hours per day)?

I’ll take a 20% cut to work in an office for a company where everyone is working in the office.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#790

Post by gingerrr » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:37 PM UTC

pg_1234 wrote: post #287

scottLobster wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have missed my point that all of those options require someone to actually be at their workstation and available. With WFH, half the time people aren't. In the office they are. If WFH is going to be the future, then there should be uptime requirements with associated penalties so that someone is as available as they would be in the office. Software development is a team sport, you don't get to walk off th…

If the company needs you, you get to do it your way. Also, software dev doesn't actually need a team, and, as the "key players" tend to go WFH more and more, the teams become worse and worse value. This ends with the decline of "team managers" and "filler players".

Did you mean "team managers" in-metaphor? As in non-players, non-coach excess staff? Totally agreed if so, didn't want to rebut unless you actually meant 1st-line managers of teams of players (which I'd place as "coach" in this metaphor).