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Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

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Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#591
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chicken and the egg. You can't really make people not want cars without better alternatives, which requires investments that aren't being made. I want a car, because I need a car. But put in a few bullet trains and offshoots, a business model for vehicles that enables access to a $100/month consumer fleet of shared vehicles so I can grab a truck, minivan, whatever as needed, and I will happily skip ownership.

This is a fantasy. In general, people don't want a shared vehicle. If they did, everyone would own a 5-year-old Toyota Camry, and not luxury pickup trucks, sports cars, Mercedes and BMWs, etc. The idea that these people are just sheep blinded by marketing is ludicrous. You might spend $5 on a beer instead of $4 because of marketing. You buy a $60,000 new vehicle over a $15,000 used one because it's a good product tha…

To contribute some rough anecdotal evidence, when I look out the window next to where I'm sitting this exact moment I see a mix of newer and older Honda Civics, Toyota Corollas, and some older SUVs. Judging from the age of those cars, I'm going to guess that most of their current owners bought them used and not new. I do not see a single pickup truck.

I'm not going to debate that the Ford F150 dominates new vehicle sales in north America, but that's only accounting for the preferences of people who are buying new vehicles and doesn't track what the used market would buy if given unlimited options.

As for the marketing argument, there's plenty of discourse surrounding it. Most new pickups are sold with short beds and extra features which make them impractical for use by many commercial trades that do use pickup trucks. There's a question of whether the F150s popularity is because of the truck's utility or because of the aesthetic desires of purchasers.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#592
post #590
post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely no kids. And since when is rucking only 10kg? That’s just going for a walk? Rucking has always been 40+ kg and involved some kind of serious terrain where I’m from?

That's for enthusiasts (super fit people)? From health benefits perspective for average person, what I've heard is that it's enough for the weight to trigger accelerated heart rate, heavier breathing, sweating etc. when walking. 10-15 kg supposedly should do it for most people.

Ah, seems like the term is being co-opted for the general populace and is now trendy! We used to just call it backpacking.

Rucking originated as a military term for a long jog with a heavy rucksack (hence the name!) and was always pretty shitty because rucksacks suck and the military has no shortage of heavy shit to carry. I’ve heard stories of 80+ lb rucksacks and 8+ miles being the norm.

Weirdly, the military also coined ‘Vitamin I’ for ibuprofen. I wonder why?

Ah how the world changes. I can’t wait for it to mean going on a casual walk with a loved one while bringing along a nice meal and some wine. ;)

Thanks for explaining!

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#593
post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve had several elderly relatives live without cars in apartment buildings in major US cities.

Yes it's called NYC. Cars everywhere but you don't need one. Every neighborhood has everything you need. Subway taxis and Ubers and delivery for everything else.

There are other US and Canadian cities besides NYC which have that.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#594
post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really sure what you mean. What information from what sources? What is dubious? I didn't quote anything and simply stated my understanding. I am not aware of the 6-24 month cross over point being so-called "FUD". I don't think I have read this report directly before, but I just found Volvo's 50 page report ( https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/-/media/market-assets/int... ). On page 6, it effectively confirms…

My unwillingness to spend an hour giving you sources to counter your nonsense "points" is only evidence of my disdain at your half worked out half baked thesis of "electric cars aren't as perfect as some people think". You aren't making any concrete claims and you aren't giving any concrete arguments, you are just vaguely saying electric cars are worse than some hypothetical person thinks they are, but you don't say…

> I don't know what point you are making with your CO2 numbers. Say the actual thing you think you are demonstrating. Are you saying electric cars won't reduce CO2 emissions? That the average person over estumates how much CO2 emissions will be reduced? Say that then? I have no idea what you are trying to say.

I don't know why you are claiming my data is FUD when I meed to explain this basic fact about EVs. It's also explained in the report I linked.

The point, which is very well known at this point, is that manufacturing EVs actually causes much higher emissions than ICE cars. In other words, at time of purchase, buying an EV is worse for the environment than buying an ICE car.

Since EVs are cleaner to drive but not manufacturer, it takes time for EVs to emit less emissions overall. That's what I have mentioned and the chart in page 6 mentions. It takes tens of thousands of miles of use for EVs to have less cumulative emissions than ICE cars.

So this is just one component that shows EVs are not strictly better. My overall point is that such estimations do not take into account the rest of the EV ecosystem which can only worsen the numbers for the EV case.

Given people usually buy new cars fairly frequently, it's very possible that EVs are a wash in terms of environmental impact and that it might take several decades, if ever, for them to actually be better. This is important to understand, to question, and to investigate.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the proper tax on tires? The more you shed, the faster they need replacement. So cars which shed a lot of microplastics would both use up more tires, AND would pay more tax. So as the tax increases we correctly linearly decrease tire use. It would be a mistake to over-punish EV users compared to ICE just because the average weight of an EV is heavier. (We know the weights, we don't need to average by class) Thi…

Then you get a lot of people keeping their old tires far longer than is safe and creating hazardous conditions. Gas tax is different in that regard.

Agree, but that has already happened. Tires already have tax on them, which makes people replace them somewhat less, since they balance the equation cost vs risk from worn tires, particularly very large scale users like taxi companies, rental fleets, trucking companies etc. We already accept the tradeoff of for example, charging 10% sales tax on tires in return for slightly more accidents.

My point is that we might be able to rebalance it more correctly by raising prices. There could be significant pressure to reduce pollution from wear technically, pressure to drive less, but also pressure to keep tires on carts slightly longer. Given that we're still making the equation more accurate, it would still be a net gain.

You can't just say "don't do that" without also explaining why you do not advocate removing sales tax on tires, or even having negative sales tax (to incentivize more frequent & safe tire replacement). Status quo is not really a defense.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#596
post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Originally it was 2019 and maybe even earlier

Various NIMBY groups kept blocking it, then covid hit. They’re worried about the wheel and wind noise, I think. If I lived near Caltrain, I’d be more worried about diesel exhaust and commute times (the new trains are faster).

The atherton (aka rich asshole den) nimby lawsuit was settled back in 2016. Then it’s mostly your standard California mismanagement and cost overrun s until ultimate excuse - covid came along

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#597
post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My unwillingness to spend an hour giving you sources to counter your nonsense "points" is only evidence of my disdain at your half worked out half baked thesis of "electric cars aren't as perfect as some people think". You aren't making any concrete claims and you aren't giving any concrete arguments, you are just vaguely saying electric cars are worse than some hypothetical person thinks they are, but you don't say…

> I don't know what point you are making with your CO2 numbers. Say the actual thing you think you are demonstrating. Are you saying electric cars won't reduce CO2 emissions? That the average person over estumates how much CO2 emissions will be reduced? Say that then? I have no idea what you are trying to say. I don't know why you are claiming my data is FUD when I meed to explain this basic fact about EVs. It's also…

> The point, which is very well known at this point, is that manufacturing EVs actually causes much higher emissions than ICE cars. In other words, at time of purchase, buying an EV is worse for the environment than buying an ICE car.

At the point of purchase, buying a reusable water bottle is worse for the environment than buying a disposable water bottle. This is not a complete argument.

> Since EVs are cleaner to drive but not manufacturer, it takes time for EVs to emit less emissions overall. That's what I have mentioned and the chart in page 6 mentions. It takes tens of thousands of miles of use for EVs to have less cumulative emissions than ICE cars.

Vehicles last about 12 years on the road (on average in the USA). Average miles per year is over 12,000. It seems like your argument implies that EVs very very easily save emissions over their life, and probably massively since they will pay for their own emissions 4 or 5 times over their life. This assumes that EVs don't have a longer life on the road than gas vehicles, but it is reasonable to think they could last longer.

> So this is just one component that shows EVs are not strictly better.

No, it absolutely does not show that. It shows that you can arbitrarily pick a moment in time where an individual EV is behind in terms of emissions, but that over the average life they are STRICTLY BETTER. If on average they are strictly better, then net they are strictly better (this is how averages work).

> Given people usually buy new cars fairly frequently, it's very possible that EVs are a wash in terms of environmental impact

This is a very stupid thing for you to say. You don't get to just make up nonsense and draw conclusions from it. This isn't something you get to just say 'people like buying cars, therefore they won't drive them enough to save emissions'. You have to look at data and extrapolate from the data, and the data says you are just being ridiculous. The data is very clear, and you aren't even remotely close to being correct. It's extremely easy to check this. You don't care though, because you want to try to get to the conclusion that EVs are bad, rather than try to figure it out.

Watch how easy it is to check: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/19/business/electric-vehicle...

    All studies agree ... electric vehicles save between 50 and 70 percent CO2

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#598
post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point about shared roadways that probably split communities. Do kids attending the same school really live that far apart? Seems like a very long distance, especially in a suburbian neighbourhood.

That is my experience in the East coast US. Here, the suburbs are very spread out, with amenities 15-20 minutes away by car. There are older suburbs where that is not true, but that's more of an exception. Housing in those older suburbs costs more than the newer more spread out developments and there are fewer of them than the newer more spread out ones. Typically, those old suburbs were originally built around train…

I see, thank you for explaining!

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often does it rain and snow where you live? Do you have kids?

All the time. Perfectly fine to bike all year. That sentiment is so funny. Before heavy snow days the police and newspapers put out warnings not to drive. But those days it's perfectly fine to bike. Then a few hours later coworkers that drove ti work show up angry about the chaos. If anything, it's the cars that can't handle snow! A bike ala a Tern cargo bike solves most of a family with kids needs where I live. (dis…

To be clear, I ebike to work 9 miles each way year-round, including in rain and snow (not a lot of rain where I live, but plenty of snow in winter). I don't have kids though.

But I do live in the US where the city is fairly car-centric, and it is ludicrous to suggest as the person I first replied to did that a cargo e-bike is a full replacement for a short-range electric car like a Leaf. There are large commercial sections of my city that cannot be safely accessed by bike, as the only ways to get there include highway off-ramps that have a 12-inch shoulder, with concrete barriers to the right and cars going 50mph just a few feet to the left.

Few people would regularly bike on such a route with their children. Especially in inclement weather.

I can take care of 70% of my day to day life with my ebike. But for the remaining 30%, a car really is necessary. And that 20% is too frequent to rent, especially lacking the inexpensive carshare services of other countries.

> If a low range EV is enough 100% just buy a bike.

Pretending that a short-range electric vehicle is not useful because ebikes exist is just sticking one's head in the sand and pretending that people unlike oneself and locations unlike where one lives do not exist.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the conclusions in this comment thread, any energy source more exotic than a wood campfire is unacceptably damaging.

I get the joke but let me just mention that wood campfire is one of the worst solutions (if done at scale). This may sound idealistic (like the other comments mentioned) but I think we just have to reduce our energy footprint and then many solutions will be green again. One great example (some will say absurd and impractical) is just using energy whenever it is available, with minimum storage. That means cooking, hea…

What sort of onboarding path do you see to get a majority of the energy consumers (both the populace and industry) willing to accept this? How could the public will to make that change be created?

This feels like about as useful a solution as saying "the US could balance their budget by simply disbanding their military". Would it work if implemented? Sure. Would the resulting world be arguably better than before? Quite possibly. Is there a path to that outcome from the present day with a nonzero chance of success? Well...

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