Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics • Hacker News Board

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#211

Post by anon84873628 » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:37 PM UTC

choeger wrote: post #194

> Indeed, the scale of these emissions is significant. Particulate emissions from tires and brakes, particularly in the PM2.5 and PM10 size ranges, are believed to exceed the mass of tailpipe emissions from modern vehicle fleets, as per a study published in Science of the Total Environment this year. This simply cannot be true. Tailpipe emissions have more mass than the gasoline that gets burned. A car uses several l…

They are talking about particles in the PM2.5 and PM10 size range, not the mass of all emissions...

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#212

Post by avalys » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:37 PM UTC

seanp2k2 wrote: post #130

avalys wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because we're a wealthy and productive society and the fruits of human progress in the past 300 years have allowed us to build a civilization where nearly everyone can afford to use a multi-ton machine of nearly incomprehensible complexity and sophistication to carry them around, instead of pushing a cart like a peasant 5,000 years ago did.

Check out eg https://youtu.be/hmk5cxpAfcw where he’s flying by all the cars stuck in traffic on his human-powered peasant wheels. Auto companies lobbied governments and put out propaganda to get cities to rip out street cars and rail in the early 1900s. They did this to sell more cars, so this is what we get.

Your young and fit rollerblade dude doesn’t seem to be carrying much in the way of groceries or supervising any young children.

What about the single mother of three with a disability? Should she push a cart to the grocery store? Who is watching her kids while she does this?

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#213

Post by comradesmith » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:38 PM UTC

choeger wrote: post #194

> Indeed, the scale of these emissions is significant. Particulate emissions from tires and brakes, particularly in the PM2.5 and PM10 size ranges, are believed to exceed the mass of tailpipe emissions from modern vehicle fleets, as per a study published in Science of the Total Environment this year. This simply cannot be true. Tailpipe emissions have more mass than the gasoline that gets burned. A car uses several l…

Aren’t a lot of the tailpipe emissions gaseous? Like carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxides, and water?

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#214

Post by epivosism » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:38 PM UTC

richjdsmith wrote: post #23

With the continued shift to EVs, petrol taxes just don't make sense as a form of taxation to pay for roads. I think we should be shifting entirely to a gross curb weight tax for all vehicles. The fourth power law states that the greater the axle load of a vehicle, the stress on the road caused by the motor vehicle increases in proportion to the fourth power of the axle load. Meaning heavier EVs cough hummer , are doi…

Isn't the proper tax on tires? The more you shed, the faster they need replacement. So cars which shed a lot of microplastics would both use up more tires, AND would pay more tax. So as the tax increases we correctly linearly decrease tire use.

It would be a mistake to over-punish EV users compared to ICE just because the average weight of an EV is heavier. (We know the weights, we don't need to average by class)

This would reward companies for inventing tech which would wear our fewer tires, leading to less pollution.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#215

Post by baggy_trough » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:38 PM UTC

whoknowsidont wrote: post #197

baggy_trough wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The positive externalities are even more enormous, which is a problem for environmentalists.

>The positive externalities are even more enormous What do cars specifically positively provide? NOT including the positives that exists due to constructing infrastructure around that mode of transportation (artificial issues).

A huge boost to economic productivity and growth by increasing the flexibility of land usage, for example.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#216

Post by anon84873628 » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:38 PM UTC

Cort3z wrote: post #204

choeger wrote: post #194

> Indeed, the scale of these emissions is significant. Particulate emissions from tires and brakes, particularly in the PM2.5 and PM10 size ranges, are believed to exceed the mass of tailpipe emissions from modern vehicle fleets, as per a study published in Science of the Total Environment this year. This simply cannot be true. Tailpipe emissions have more mass than the gasoline that gets burned. A car uses several l…

Exactly. Not saying this is good news either way, but I can go multiple years on a set of tires, and majority of the mass is still there when I go to charge tires. Perhaps they mean just the mass in the pm2.5-pm10 size spectrum?

Indeed, the sentence says "particulate emissions" not gaseous emissions.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#217

Post by olalonde » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:42 PM UTC

kylebenzle wrote: post #35

_dark_matter_ wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you link to this research? Is there any tire company using this technology? If the people cared we could either pay a premium for them, or regulate

Yes! All the big tire companies, Goodyear, Michelin and Firestone have a "natural rubber" development department and every couple years they come out with a "green tire" which they quickly drop and forget about. As for the "technology" of natural rubber, yes again, ALL military aircraft tires are only natural rubber, people know, when it matters use ONLY natural rubber. Again, we use choose to use and pollute with sy…

This is a naive and incorrect view of economics. Tire manufacturers employ synthetic rubber because that's what consumers want (probably because it's cheaper even when accounting for the lower longevity?). They do not just get to dictate which products enter the market.

Which makes me highly doubt your claim that natural rubber tires are both superior AND cheaper. If you are right about that, I'm sure there are VCs who would be more than happy to fund you...

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#218

Post by Forbo » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:43 PM UTC

nerdponx wrote: post #182

mlsu wrote: post #166

Has anyone here ever lived near a freeway or even moderately busy road? I made the mistake of renting next to the freeway. Noise was perfectly tolerable, but I could not use my back porch, because after just a few weeks, everything had a fine coating of black dust. I could not keep my windows open in the summer. I was certainly breathing this vile shit the entire time I lived there. This doesn't surprise me in the le…

Do tires shed more dust at higher speeds? I wonder if this has always been a known but unstated problem, or if increasing highway speeds are causing it to get worse.

Great question, I have no idea. I wish the nationwide 55mph speed limit were reinstated, if only to reduce oil consumption. Added bonus that it might actually encourage more public transit and walkable cities. Nobody will take this idea seriously, the US is far too addicted to cars and lacks the density.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#219

Post by nologic01 » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:44 PM UTC

This is a strong a warning as any for people not to get too hang up on greenhouse gas emissions as the holy grail of sustainability. It creates the wrong mindset.

What we have drifted into is a tech supported civilization that is covering the planet from corner to corner with myriad of footprints (emissions, particulate and chemical pollution of all types, habitat alteration or destruction etc).

The story of ozon layer depletion was an early warning. Greenhouses another dimension. Microplastics and nitrates another etc etc, with no end in sight.

Imagine homo sapiens communities spread around in the billions and a steady stream of polluting stuff emanating from them, not temporarily but continuously and forever.

This is the challenge we are facing and its monumental. How to take that out-of-control, scant regard for externalities tech enabled economic "growth" mindset and turn it around.

Bold ideas are welcome. Burrying heads in the sand not an option.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#220

Post by anon84873628 » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 6:49 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #165

Can someone explain why rubber - not a plastic - makes up the majority of plastic in the ocean? They do say "synthetic rubber", but from what I am reading those are also not considered a type of plastic. Not that the definition matters too much, but I think it's important not to use language that could be construed as being purposefully disingenuous to make an argument seem more dramatic, since doing so undermines th…

Most writing uses "plastic" to mean any synthetic polymer, even non-organic ones like silicone. I don't think this is deliberately disingenuous or even ignorant; it would simply be awkward and mostly irrelevant to use precise technical terms every time.

Technically rubber is elastic, not plastic. But even "thermosetting plastics" aren't physically plastic anymore. Silicone is synthetic but not organic, while lots of organic polymers aren't synthetic. All the public really cares about is "shit that doesn't belong in the ocean".