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Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

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631–640 of 913 posts

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#631

This is a classic HN post that will get a lot of positive attention here playing into the HN cognitive bias zeitgeist, but I think is mostly bullshit. The market will settle it in the end, but at least for startups being colocated is a competitive advantage.

The blog post is confusing the nature of policy changes being bullshit with the in-office being bullshit. Star ICs crushing it at remote work doesn't mean star teams; and if their coworkers are avoiding them in reviews it does sound like there are communication issues at play.

Teams avoiding security reviews are common cross-industry.

Incentives everywhere are “dodge” - the expected outcome for managers and engineers is missed deadlines and reschedulings on prior promises, frequent blame-focused meetings and late nights; and low prestige, high effort work unsuitable for making the company money, getting promotions, or maintaining agility in the future, as most security work is extremely mercurial and often only very marginally improves security, if at all.

Most “security fixes” at large firms are built on inscrutable black-box internal tooling which becomes a massive single point of failure and is rarely as hardened as implied, gets re-shuffled on what constitutes “best practices” every 12 months such that a feature team can spend literally all their time doing security work the team will be throwing out next year, are often not intelligently scoped to handle “this issue doesn’t specifically apply to my component”, and aren’t even the weak link when most hacks are

> An insider replied to the wrong email, or put a zip file into a thumb drive then ran off with everything his computer had downloaded, which was a lot.

Most teams grit their teeth and implement, but if the benefit isn’t there, just the requirement, teams remember and get a lot slower to pick up the phone.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before COVID there were a ton of people who wanted to work remotely but couldn't because remote jobs were few and far between. COVID finally gave them what they always wanted, but now it's being taken away, and remote jobs are getting harder to find again. That's why there is resentment. There was resentment before too, but it was more below the radar because it was always shot down with "we work better in person" an…

It goes much deeper than that though. It isn't just "they wanted it and couldn't have it, then they got it and now they want to keep it:" A lot of people, myself included, did not understand even if we wanted work from home, how life changing it would be. How it's better for us as people, better for us as workers, better for our pocketbooks, better for our planet, better for our lives, just... better. It's ALL better…

I have a nice office at work, where I have less distractions than at home. I find that face-to-face meetings allow for better discussions and whiteboarding than video conferencing. I can commute by bike on a lovely route, thus getting regular exercise and fresh air. I can better compartmentalize work from leisure. I don’t have to spend my whole day within the same walls. I get to see other people and have random encounters with interesting technical and non-technical discussions at work.

So it depends on circumstances and preferences. Both modes should be possible.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#633
post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Hey, this is only temporary" I'd be far less disappointed Ironically, during peak covid lockdowns, "this is only temporary" may have actually been seen as reckless and irresponsible. "There's a pandemic! We need to be remote for the foreseeable future, not just temporarily!1!1" (etc...) During peak covid, a lot of people made decisions that they reneged or reversed later. I'll get downvoted if I empathize with the…

I didn't know when the Fed/government might stop lying about it, but inflation was immediately obvious to me, and should've been to anyone with assets and who tracked those assets' value. My net worth in Mint grew 38% from Feb 2020 - Feb 2021 (so from the high before the big dip in March 2020) during a time when everyone was talking about supply chain disruptions, delays, lockdowns, etc. My manager and I would regula…

I think this is where the "inflation is transitory" catchphrase was born.

"Yes, we see all of these price changes, but don't worry it will go back to normal after the pandemic" ... which people went along with for a while, until it was clear that prices weren't dropping back to normal.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Personally, I’d prefer smaller offices with hotel space and generously equipped collaboration space. Doesn't everyone, you know, hate this kind of stuff? I know I do.

I had a lot of people excited about having a space where we could deliberately meet for collaboration. Even more so about bringing everyone into a shared space for a week. However, the collaboration spaces never worked out in practice because you were always missing someone and now had to call in to a Zoom meeting regardless. This lead to the thing quickly dying because there so little was real value from coming in.…

It's also potentially a team size issue. If you have small teams of 2-3 people, you can more easily have enough meet for useful collaboration.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#635
post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

What was the #1 argument against WFH before COVID? It was fear of productivity drop, that the company simply can't function with WFH. Then COVID happened and companies worked fine for three years with WFH. At this point, it shouldn't be called RTO, it should be called STO (Switch To Office), because WFH is the default existing state. And the companies that want to STO, they admit there's NO DATA to support this: http…

> Then COVID happened and companies worked fine for three years with WFH.

I don't think we have good data on that "worked fine" part. Personally I saw a significant degradation of our team performance during COVID remote.

Some people slacked a lot (difficult to catch, though), many people worked hard (perhaps even harder than in office), but the bad communication reduced the overall team productivity a lot.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#636
post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the environmental benefits of vegetarianism emerge from/rely upon our entire population being mostly meatless. I understand the argument, I still don't think it's valid. Companies are made up of heterogeneous individuals with not only different preferences on how to work, but different work styles, different flexibility needs, different energy cycles. One of my current teammates has Crohn's and is a fantastic progr…

Some believe the benefits of RTO are closer to the ability of an entire team to eat from the same crock of chili at a potluck. There are discussions and topics that just work better in-person. If you think you have (or could arrange to have ) 0% or 3% those types of conversations, you're fine to work fully remote. If you think you have 70% or 90% those types of conversations, you're logically going to want to RTO to…

You may be right, but there should be more concrete evidence than arbitrary percentages and "just work better" before I'll be convinced to make the enormous life changes for RTO.

What is the value differential--in dollars--of these in-person conversations? All I'm seeing are vague speculations.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like bad financial advice, and that you’d be be better to accept it and put it in savings for however many months. If you don’t stay the required amount of time, return the money. If you do, ta-da, it’s yours. Ask your tax person first, of course.

Not sure how it works everywhere, but in many cases it's not just money they give you. They basically reimburse you for particular moving expenses.

Understood. Even then, if someone offers you money on the condition that you may have to pay it back, unless there's a penalty involved, you almost always want to take them up on it.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#639
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Walking over and talking to someone is still far superior to any online communication. This is an example of a local maximum. This form of communication is better for the person doing the walking, but worse when looked at through most other frames: - worse for the person being asked, who was interrupted - worse for the people who weren't privy to that conversation but perhaps could have learned or contributed excep…

You describe what sounds like slow moving places. When rapid reactions are required then even just being able to hear commotion a few rows of seats away can be quite valuable. Doesn't mean people cannot write questions well, but sometimes forcing attention now matters.

I'm not saying people shouldn't go to the office. I'm just saying there are a number of downsides to encouraging walking over to someone's desk to ask a question as a primary mode of knowledge exchange. These downsides have been enumerated at length in The Discourse. On the other side of the ledge is mostly "qualitative" arguments lacking in specifics.

The main thing is there are real trade-offs for the staff and organization, and those tend to get overlooked in favor of lifestyle or sunk RE cost arguments.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#640
post #532
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had a Cisco conference setup for two joined conference rooms back in 2014? It was like $500K per site. It was terrible, picture quality was 1080i with bad sound, but something an exec would love cosplaying as a member of the NSC. The thing couldn't easily handle conferees using webcams etc. Got torn out when the support contract ended and converted into a traditional conference room.

That number sounds high to me. Is your contention here that the technology to make this seamless and reliable experience doesn't exist, or are you agreeing with me that it's not trivial to implement?

I think that unless you're a nation-state with huge budgets, creating a seamless and reliable experience is relatively non-existent. We've tried all the major vendors for conference rooms, and they all have sharp edges that give you continual paper cuts. The same is true for tech for remote users (Teams, Slack, etc etc.). That doesn't mean they're not good enough, but they definitely still suck.
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