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Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

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Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#131
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always find hilarious that it is the most free market advocates who tend to ignore that. A lot of free market advocates don't seem to understand how markets work. One of the main ways you grow an economy is to add people to it. You are adding jobs, by both creating labor supply and demand for goods and services. It's really very simple. The economy is made of people, stupid!

Require immigrants to be self-sustaining at some minimum amount. Have a job ready or otherwise prove the ability to pay for your housing (someone willing to board you). Otherwise, instantly applying government handouts to someone without any skills - language or otherwise - and often with kids and disabled relatives - makes the idea of unlimited open immigration a daunting cost.

> Require immigrants to be self-sustaining at some minimum amount. Have a job ready or otherwise prove the ability to pay for your housing (someone willing to board you).

These are the sorts of arguments which get trotted out for only certain kinds of immigrants.

Where I live in Chicagoland, Eastern European immigrants (Poles especially) face a lot of the same kinds of issues. Lots of signs and documents are printed in English, Spanish and Polish around here. They just try like hell to get here, however they can (often illegally, via visa overstays, just like immigrants from Latin America). But for reasons I will leave as an exercise for the reader, nobody around here is advocating these sorts of rules to be applied to Poles.

I used to live in a town that was 49% Latino (really, Mexican was most of that). You will find that most of those folks would pass this test you suggest. Most people are not moving to a country where they have no job and no place to stay - there's always some community of friends and family they are connected with where they can land and get on their feet. Obviously! You'd have to be mad to move your whole family to a place where you have no job and no place to stay. If that option seems attractive to you, then probably conditions in your country of origin are so bad that you really should be a refugee.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#132

> There’s the age-old question of how we pay for this. Sanders proposed a Wall Street financial transactions tax. A 0.1 percent tax, according to a Congressional Budget Office estimate, could raise $777 billion over 10 years. Or we could hike taxes on corporations and the wealthiest Americans. I have no problem taxing wall street or "the wealthiest Americans", but I don't see the connection between this proposal and…

It’s not a partisan issue and politics should not even be involved. Other countries do it and it’s a no brainer. For example, India has a blanket education cess that individuals and corporations pay, and in return public education (school and college) is heavily subsidized (Schools are next to free). Everyone benefits from this investment and it’s mind boggling we still are fighting over this.

https://cleartax.in/g/terms/education-cess/amp

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#133

Nothing is “free”. Sometimes the costs are hidden from most people. It’s like immigration. If you say, “anyone who comes here can’t be kicked out and you instantly get access to healthcare, food stamps, and free housing” then your maximum payout is the entire planet and you are bankrupt once people realize this. For public college to be free, I want to limit access, like happens in Europe. Sure college can be free… t…

It's telling that people aren't willing to contend with the corollary of "free education" and "free healthcare": limited capacity. Edit: I should probably mention that I'm generally in favor of state-funded education, for a variety of reasons.

Public universities in the US do have admission requirements and yearly admission limits. I'm not sure where this idea that they don't comes from.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#134
post #7

I don't follow the logic the author is using. Let's say we make all public colleges free for students. "Elite" schools will still exist, and top students will still target schools such as Ivy/MIT/Stanford/etc. One look at the people in executive offices or top political offices and you'll find a substantial portion are graduates from elite schools.

You can still have elite public universities (UC Berkeley, Michigan)

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#135

I’m amazed by how many people use the word “free” to mean “pay even more tax for the rest of your life.”

your is misused here. It's "free" for the person attending. I don't think many people are confused and think there is no cost or that it's not borne by taxpayers.

It's not free for them, it's being taken out of their income to the point their salaries are significantly lower than the US. This is like saying if I pre-order a game and then play it when it comes out I'm getting a free game.

I have no idea why this is the default answer whenever this comes up. It seems like you're trying to sway opinions by gaslighting what's really happening. Why is it hard to admit the term free is obviously being misused in this case to present socially funding healthcare as better?

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#136
post #74

Making public colleges free isn't... free. The perception is often that public universities are already getting most of their money from the state or federal government, so why not just close the gap. But the typical funding level is between 40-50%. The remaining 50-60% is currently covered by tuition and philanthropic giving. So closing the gap to make universities free to the public would involve (in most cases) mo…

>>So closing the gap to make universities free to the public would involve (in most cases) more than doubling the current level of state/federal funding.

Or, a mix of increasing the level of state/federal funding and closing down a portion of the roughly 1900 public colleges[1] around the country. Unfortunatley, as soon as this approach is used, then the "access" problem rears its head since public colleges that are shutdown require more students to commute/reside further away from their home towns.

[1] https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=1122

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#137
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nothwithstanding all the things that taxes get used for, education is the last thing that you want to force people to pay for by themselves, because the result will be that much less people will send their kids to school because they can't afford it, and so you will end up with a large portion of uneducated and unemployable people. you really do not want to live in a country where that is the case. only education can…

But would they vote for you if they were educated? Then they might understand that they are voting against their economic self-interest...

well, if i am the one pushing for free education then i hope that those who did receive free education will recognize the benefit they received from that education and continue to vote for me, or for anyone else pushing in the same direction

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#138

I was in the second high school class to get Louisiana's TOPS program, which at the time gave four years' full-ride tuition plus fees to any public state university with a nominal ACT score and generous GPA requirements (18 ACT and 2.5 GPA IIRC). Wouldn't be here today without it. My parents couldn't afford anything but the closest and shittiest university, with no compsci program (they only had a business computing…

> My parents couldn't afford anything…

Not saying its the right way, but grew up without a lot of financial resources, no money specifically to pay for college, and I went to a private 4 year engineering program starting in 1999 by taking out boat-loads of loans. Going into school I had nothing and needed 100% of my tuition covered by loans, grants, or scholarships.

I was reasonably confident that having an engineering degree would allow me to pay back the loans (it did, but it didn't go as smoothly for all of my classmates).

Based on my experience, I don't really understand the idea of not being able to afford college (at least for degrees which will put you in reasonably paying positions). Am I an outlier? I doubt it. I didn't go to a particularly well known school, but was able to figure out employment and self-sufficiency. Now I have the pride of finishing a relatively difficult program and paying for it through my own labor.

Medical professionals, engineers, and the like have so many opportunities that it's not clear why we should subsidize their education. Educators, on the other hand, have to pay the same price for a degree, have to have continuing education, and then get paid crappy wages. While I'd rather reward them on the back end with better benefits, if there is a program worth subsidizing, it's probably educators.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

your is misused here. It's "free" for the person attending. I don't think many people are confused and think there is no cost or that it's not borne by taxpayers.

It's not free for them, it's being taken out of their income to the point their salaries are significantly lower than the US. This is like saying if I pre-order a game and then play it when it comes out I'm getting a free game. I have no idea why this is the default answer whenever this comes up. It seems like you're trying to sway opinions by gaslighting what's really happening. Why is it hard to admit the term free…

The thing the article talks about is: not charging for tuition, ever. It's not some kind of loan program or pay later program. Those programs have been discussed, are in place in certain places (australia for example), but is not what people are talking about here.

Unless you are saying "if everyone goes, and everyone pays taxes, it's a wash"? In which case, that's not close to the reality of the situation. As a percentage of the population, attendees of in state public universities is low and always has been. If you don't think that some subset is being subsidized by the general population is good, that's a reasonable argument, but to suggest it's a wash just isn't accurate.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#140
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it work in other countries? I know we have a larger population, but surely that applies just as much to our ability to scale up supply as it does to the inherent increase in demand? The United States is uniquely bad at covering the costs of health care and education, compared to its economic peers. Why is that?

We definitely need a complete overhaul of the US health system, but we don't just "have a larger population". The largest countries in Europe by population (after Russia) are Turkey and Germany with with 85M and 84M, respectively. The US has 331M. That is almost ~4x! When we say it works in other countries, most of the time we are referring to Europe. And most countries in Europe are tiny in comparison. The US is the…

Sure, I agree that they will require unique solutions, but the general trend of economies of scale providing efficiency benefits suggests to me that the biggest problems are political rather than logistical.
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