Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It • Hacker News Board

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#541

Post by _cenw » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:17 PM UTC

npsimons wrote: post #498

_cenw wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends how load-bearing you are for your organization/team. If I and everyone else worked in the office in 2 out of the last 3 jobs I had, I'd have an interruption at least every once an hour, and maybe a queue at times. And yes, I should stop working with people that barely know how to work Git or Bash or the package manager for the language they use (even those I don't even use; if I indulge a request f…

> People just don't seem to value my time over their convenience a lot of times. A good tactic is to ask them about rubber duck debugging when they come to you with a problem. If they don't know what that is, have them Google it. If they still come back after that, hopefully they actually have a problem worth more than one person's attention. Otherwise, they should find another job.

Quite often it's just a mix of laziness and knowing that I probably know better. I'm not sure if that's better than them building broken pipelines and custom kubernetes shenanigans that I have to catch later anyway.

For instance, we recently found some developer started using some very traefik-specific annotations and CRDs in our clusters (and they can only deploy manifests that don't pass through our renderer with a hack anyway). While we were migrating ingress controllers...

It just seems like there's quite a shortage of developers, so hiring standards aren't the greatest. Or maybe I should have a higher tier job. But I already have to work 4 days a week because while I get more done than my peers, I absolutely can not work for more than 1-2 hours a day if I get bored. And fixing people's shitty designs tends to be only somewhat engaging.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#542

Post by kstrauser » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:17 PM UTC

BadCookie wrote: post #408

Contusion3532 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think so. It's my belief that they often times leadership sees software engineers as cogs that can easily be replaced by another. They don't appreciate the years of institutional knowledge that experienced engineers have, vast productivity differences between workers, etc.

Yeah. The other day, I asked a clarifying question that led to a long email chain among non-technical employees. Of course, the various VPs refer to each other by name, but when the resulting email chain got forwarded to me, I see that I was referred to merely as "the dev." It really hammered home for me that these people will never see me as their equal. I am just a nameless, fungible "resource" despite my decade+ o…

As an aside, unless you have a specific reason not to, refer to others in those situations in the way they refer to each other. If you’re chatting with Jane and Bob, and they’re calling each other Jane and Bob, so should you. Your default attitude should be that you’re their peer, even if you’re working in different fields. They’re good at managing organizations. You’re good at technical stuff. You’re all there to work together to get stuff done.

Get them used to calling you by name as an equal, not as “the dev”.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#543

Post by guilhas » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:18 PM UTC

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #53

I’ll know this “counter argument” isn’t bullshit when people finally admit they know full well a large portion of people abuse WFH. Until I see honesty on this, I am uninterested. No one ever admits: - I basically work 20-30 hours a week! - They have no idea when I’m actually working. - I was going to quit but I’m going to let them just keep paying me. - I have at least one side job and I won’t be able to do it if I…

Exactly, most companies structure and processes are not ready for remote, much less hybrid, work. And a lot of workers are also not ready for that change

I started remotely recently but I feel the company, which seems to be trying, struggles to give me meaningful work, or have colleagues available to collaborate and move it forward

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#544

Post by lazide » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:18 PM UTC

_puk wrote: post #518

lazide wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s not in writing, it ‘never happened’ - and even then, make sure you have a copy they can’t get at and know your odds of a successful prosecution under the law (and your ability and willingness to see it through). Because sometimes that will be required.

Generally[0] your contract references a living policy document covering the softer areas. I see changes to these documents as similar to the change in T's & C's for any service I use; your continued use of the service denotes acceptance of the new terms. You're welcome to leave at any time. Not sure what you can litigate against. 0: anecdotal from the past 15 years

If they actually put in writing ‘Remote is forever’, then later try to fire you for refusing to return to the office - what judge in the world is going to rule in their favor?

If course, they rarely actually say that. But some folks have definitely been dumb enough to do so.

The issue with contract law is that most folks never put things in writing, so it’s a pain to litigate many claims, which makes it uneconomic to recover damages.

But if it’s in writing? Sounds like an easy to show breach of contract to me!

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#545

Post by jzb » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:18 PM UTC

andrewmutz wrote: post #149

Two9A wrote: post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

Prior to COVID, everyone understood that remote work was supported by some companies and not others. It was also a type of work that was preferred by some employees and not others. As a result, everyone peacefully self-selected into their preferred employment relationships. Companies got the type of workforce they wanted and workers chose the type of environment they wanted. It was great. Today, as some companies are…

I can give several reasons there's resentment: One - if you were hired with the understanding work would be remote, then it's definitely a reason to be resentful.

Two, people love to handwave away the difficulties in "just find another job." This isn't trivial like switching toothpaste brands, somebody who's been with Acme Corp for 3 years has invested time with that employer, learned their ins and outs, and has banked some social capital there. Saying "oh, just find another job" is saying "just toss all that out and start over."

Three, if you do change jobs you have no clue whether the next company might get swept up in the RTO craze at a later date. When Acme Corp's pro-RTO CEO or another c-level person trot over to your new workplace, guess what? Now it's no longer remote-friendly.

We're not living in the same world we were pre-COVID and many of us see no reason to go backwards.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#546

Post by downrightmike » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:20 PM UTC

andrewmutz wrote: post #149

Two9A wrote: post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

Prior to COVID, everyone understood that remote work was supported by some companies and not others. It was also a type of work that was preferred by some employees and not others. As a result, everyone peacefully self-selected into their preferred employment relationships. Companies got the type of workforce they wanted and workers chose the type of environment they wanted. It was great. Today, as some companies are…

I've always hated going into an office, I hate the drive, I hate the shitty coffee, I hate having to check which of the toilet seats ISN'T already caked in shit from the QA guys, I hate having to watch my smoking cowokers take the first 10 to 20 minutes off the start of every hour to smoke and the management allowing it because they also smoke. Then they bitch when I leave on time and they still have hours of work to make up. Now people can fuck up their own shit and I can just do work. Covid made it possible for companies to pull their heads out of their asses and offer WFH for more positions.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#547

Post by light_hue_1 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:20 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #390

x86x87 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not only about before pandemic remote workers. Once people enjoyed the flexibility they aren't going back.

I asked about WFH prior to the pandemic and was told 'oh it won't work for you, ask again when you're in a senior position; you'll never develop without peer-friendships and a senior worker a couple of desks away'. Then we were forced to WFH. Now, we're being told to do hybrid, but there's no peer friendships because it's hotdesking, and the senior personnel are no longer nearby (they're at home or on a different flo…

And of course, you will spend all of your time in the office zooming with other people who aren't there.

Time to get a new job.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#548

Post by colinsane » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:20 PM UTC

strict9 wrote: post #26

>If I had to give only one bit of advice to anyone ever faced with an ultimatum from someone with power over them (be it an employer or abusive romantic partner), it would be: >Ultimately, never choose the one giving you an ultimatum. This is such great advice. When you are given an ultimatum it is very revealing. Pretend to comply as the author advises, then find something else. Your sense of self-worth is more valu…

unless you’re actually in that very rare category of “i can’t believe i get paid to do the thing i love” (all of the job — not just the fun parts), then how is taking any job not you accepting the ultimatum of “either i work for someone else, or my landlord kicks me to the curb”?

author’s advice, if taken literally, is to homestead? not that i don’t get the appeal — i just don’t think very many are actually cut out for that.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#549

Post by zoogeny » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:20 PM UTC

clemailacct1 wrote: post #516

zoogeny wrote: post #301

> Conversely, if you let these assholes exert their power over you, you dehumanize yourself in submission. I normally like strong opinions even when I disagree with them. It is usually refreshing to hear people share their true feelings in an unfiltered way. This, on the other hand, feels bitter. It seems to be coming from a place of hate. By all means, stand up for yourself and your ideals. Sometimes you have to mak…

> This, on the other hand, feels bitter. It seems to be coming from a place of hate. Does it bother you that someone may actually hate something?

It does bother me when that hate is directed at anyone who might make the decision to return to the office when faced with a RTO policy from their employer. The author is plainly saying such people are dehumanizing themselves.

I would hate to see that kind of contempt for others spread, especially for a compromise that a large majority of people will probably make.

I'm not a saint myself, but I would prefer if popular articles on the subject urged us to look at others with empathy.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#550

Post by api » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:20 PM UTC

ramraj07 wrote: post #34

If I start a company tomorrow, this is what I would want to do: 1. Hire within a general metropolitan area (2 hour commute max). 2. WFH for 28 days a month. 3. 2 days a month the entire org convenes in a ballroom or something and works together, have some progress reports, happy hours and hackathons. In this model, everyone’s remote most of the time. Yet everyone gets FaceTime with each other IrL. Seed ideas and brai…

I think you're in an uncanny valley here.

Single metro area destroys a lot of the benefit to workers of WFH. It's not about not going to the office. It's about breaking real state.

You're also losing a big benefit to the employer: the ability to hire the best talent from a pool of 300+ million people instead of those in just one metro area.

This plan gets you the downsides of WFH, namely that it's harder to casually communicate, without the upsides to either yourself or the employee. Go all-in on remote or don't.

BTW the difference in real estate cost between say the SF Bay Area and most of the rest of the USA is so great it'd be cheaper to fly everyone to SF every 30-60 days than to pay the salary premium to afford housing there. (... and it's not like employees are pocketing that salary... it all goes to real estate.)