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Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

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Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#81

Post by arolihas »

flashgordon wrote: post #68
lesam wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to be a CEO, it's a lot better to network with the kids of all the CEO's than the kids of the dentists and middle managers, if you can arrange it.

Totally and this is what I imagined elite schools and colleges were providing. Kinda like signalling. But if you don't have the means to hobnob then might as well get educated affordably?

Hobnobbing with the children of rich families is easier on a college campus compared to moving to Manhattan and trying to climb the social ladder from scratch. The earlier you can get into these circles the better. That's why private schools like Trinity or Andover are so coveted. Even certain daycares are becoming "elite."

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#82

Post by omginternets »

owenmarshall wrote: post #25
omginternets wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's telling that people aren't willing to contend with the corollary of "free education" and "free healthcare": limited capacity. Edit: I should probably mention that I'm generally in favor of state-funded education, for a variety of reasons.

Healthcare capacity in the US is a function of your ability to pay for it. We contend with limited supply today, we just kick the limited supply to groups of people who by and large aren't posting on this website.

Yes... I agree. I'm not sure what your point is?

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#83

Post by alephnerd »

esarbe wrote: post #33
itg wrote: post #7

I don't follow the logic the author is using. Let's say we make all public colleges free for students. "Elite" schools will still exist, and top students will still target schools such as Ivy/MIT/Stanford/etc. One look at the people in executive offices or top political offices and you'll find a substantial portion are graduates from elite schools.

Seems to be a cultural issue in the USA, as this is not happening in Europe. Quite the contrary; going to private colleges is very widely perceived as a last-ditch way for rich kids with bad grades to get some paper at least. I guess this in the USA this is an insider/outsider problem where "elite" school insiders prefer other "elite" insiders over other, potentially equally capable candidates.

There is elitism in hiring within Europe as well.

The difference is that most European countries didn't have private universities.

And if you go to Western US states, you'll see similar recruiting elitism from top public schools like UCB, UCLA, and UT Austin.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#85

Post by dragonwriter »

EA-3167 wrote: post #50
ulrashida wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please support this statement: "The US spends more on education than the military"? This view ( https://www.usaspending.gov/explorer/agency ) suggests Defense spending is $1.1 trillion in 2023 while Department of Education funding is $208 billion.

The entire US military budget is federal, but most of the education budget comes from the states. You're comparing apples to oranges.

> The entire US military budget is federal,

False. For instance, California’s military spending in FY 2023-2024 is budgeted at $293.6 million (putting it between Paraguay and Niger in military spending), of which the majority is state funds, not federal support (by state funds alone, its somewhere around Monogolia’s military spending.)

It is true that the vast majority of the US’s defense spending is federal, though.

[0] https://ebudget.ca.gov/2023-24/pdf/Enacted/GovernorsBudget/8...

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#86

Post by hahamrfunnyguy »

I've always had this crazy idea that we could make high school useful again. Run year round and provide more opportunities for swapping in college-level course work or actual college or trade school courses.

This kind of opportunity would have allowed me to finish my education sooner, or at least enjoy it more. As it was, I worked full time every summer since I turned 16 and then 30+ hours a week while I was completing my bachelor's degree and taking classes year-round. I got my degree from a private school, but transferred in about 25% of my credits which reduced the total cost significantly.

It sucked and I missed out on a lot of experiences during that time period BUT I had a minimal amount of debt when I graduated.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#87

Post by ojosilva »

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #23
jasonlotito wrote: post #11

Just a reminder, free public college was the norm for a long time, and many people benefited from it before turning around and working hard to dismantle it. It's not some foreign concept. It's very much apart of America's history. The question we need to ask is whether it's a better system now than it was in the past, and I don't see anyone arguing that it's better now.

Free tuition at public college might have been the norm; but not free room and board and books etc. Unless you could pay for all of that, there were also no guaranteed loans which meant that college was still unavailable except to the relatively wealthy.

This. Sending kids to public universities in the US has always been a big money issue for even the better-off parents (not elite), especially with more than 1 kid seeking higher education. It's definitely not just tuition. You have to enable 3 young adults financially like in my parents case. They had to juggle a lot to stay afloat! Thankfully I landed a great paying job after 2 years on the market and was able to help push my brother and sister through Arizona State, although we all picked up a lot of debt in the process though credit cards.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#88

Post by AnimalMuppet »

adolph wrote: post #22

Over the past few decades, college tuition and fees have metastasized, hitting an average of nearly $11,000 a year for in-state students who attend public four-year institutions, and now undergraduate enrollment is plummeting. There is a solution: Congress and more states should adopt tuition-free public higher education. This will alleviate the student debt crisis and enable low-income students, particularly those o…

First: That isn't even the correct use of "metastasized". (Unless you assume that any cost at all is a cancer.) That's rather jarring in an article about higher education.

Second: If prices are out of control, so people aren't going there because it's too expensive, maybe the answer is to let supply and demand do its thing? This proposal takes universities that are too expensive, and looks for an alternate way to pay them anyway. That's not the answer - or at least, it's not the answer to the problem that they say they're trying to solve.

Find a way to lower the cost of college, rather than changing who pays for it. (We can also talk about who pays for it, but the solution to the stated problem is to find a way to undo the insane increase in college costs.)

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#89

Post by MarkMarine »

monero-xmr wrote: post #42
MarkMarine wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question, do you have a college degree, and do you think the majority of the population being generally educated is actually a bad thing? I can understand the reaction to the cost, and many people work outside of the degree they majored in, but I do value the general education of the population. It’s been a remarkably uplifting force in society, if you look back over history. I also wonder what that means for…

We are talking about taking something that individuals pay for, that costs about $40k in total at affordable schools, and making it totally free for as many people who want it. If additional people want to pay beyond the cap, wonderful. But I don’t see how the financials make any sense otherwise.

could you answer those questions I asked you?

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#90

Post by flashback2199 »

AmVess wrote: post #78
karaterobot wrote: post #46

> There’s the age-old question of how we pay for this. Sanders proposed a Wall Street financial transactions tax. A 0.1 percent tax, according to a Congressional Budget Office estimate, could raise $777 billion over 10 years. Or we could hike taxes on corporations and the wealthiest Americans. I have no problem taxing wall street or "the wealthiest Americans", but I don't see the connection between this proposal and…

I have a problem with taxes in general, and this is yet another stupid idea. Increased tax loads always get passed on to the consumer. What we will end up with is higher cost of doing business and 100% for certain federally run universities will still need taxpayer bailouts every single year. Lose lose all the way around. I have an even better idea: get rid of all freebies. If someone wants something, they can get of…

> Increased tax loads always get passed on to the consumer

Yep, taxes are a little bit worse than that too because the cost also gets passed to the producer as well in the form of decreased demand.

The result is fewer goods and services exchanged - ie less economic activity - than there would have been with a lower tax.

Formally, it is called deadweight loss in microecon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadweight_loss?wprov=sfla1

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