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Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

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Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#61

Post by Metacelsus »

ulrashida wrote: post #38
jandrewrogers wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US spends more on education than the military, it is difficult to defend the idea that spending on education has not been prioritized. Per the OECD, US spending per student is among the highest in the world by a large margin, which raises the question of value for the money already being spent -- any deficiencies compared to other countries aren't for lack of money. The US also spends a lot of money on the milita…

Could you please support this statement: "The US spends more on education than the military"? This view ( https://www.usaspending.gov/explorer/agency ) suggests Defense spending is $1.1 trillion in 2023 while Department of Education funding is $208 billion.

D-of-Ed is just federal funding, most education funding (unlike defense funding) is at the state/local level.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#62

Post by dataflow »

liotier wrote: post #27
monero-xmr wrote: post #4

Nothing is “free”. Sometimes the costs are hidden from most people. It’s like immigration. If you say, “anyone who comes here can’t be kicked out and you instantly get access to healthcare, food stamps, and free housing” then your maximum payout is the entire planet and you are bankrupt once people realize this. For public college to be free, I want to limit access, like happens in Europe. Sure college can be free… t…

> Sometimes the costs are hidden from most people. [..] It’s like immigration The costs of immigration are not hidden, nor are its benefits. Financially speaking and from the point of view of the state, immigrant are net negative in the first couple of years - and then they are net positive for the rest of their lives. Immigration exists because market demand for workforce exists... I always find hilarious that it is…

> Immigration exists because market demand for workforce exists

The massive wave of migration the US is seeing from (say) Venezuela is due to market demand in the US? Are you sure there isn't a bigger factor driving this?

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#63

Post by harshreality »

Swizec wrote: post #6

One of my favorite cultural artefacts from Europe is that "Oh you pay tuition? Sorry your grades weren't good enough" My university only charged you for retaking exams (after 3 tries) and for redoing a year, if you didn't make a baseline of credits. 1 re-do was free. You can re-take any class for free as long as you're enrolled. I used this to take classes from past years that I didn't pass. While I'm a bad example o…

That's true in the US, but probably to a lesser degree than in Europe.

If you had good enough SATs, you can often get full scholarships to your state's public universities. Other states' schools as well, although to a lesser degree—it would be more selective, like scholarships for private schools, since public colleges obviously prefer to subsidize their own states' residents over others, given equal test scores.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#64

Post by AlbertCory »

starkparker wrote: post #60

I was in the second high school class to get Louisiana's TOPS program, which at the time gave four years' full-ride tuition plus fees to any public state university with a nominal ACT score and generous GPA requirements (18 ACT and 2.5 GPA IIRC). Wouldn't be here today without it. My parents couldn't afford anything but the closest and shittiest university, with no compsci program (they only had a business computing…

well, but UL Lafayette was where Bill Evans went. So it's got that going for it.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#65

Post by sokoloff »

chalsprhebaodu wrote: post #51
flashgordon wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Australian who benefited from a great public college (or as we call it uni) if public schools were free and high quality what would motivate the demand for elite schools? Yes elite schools are still networking grounds. But wouldnt the hope be that if people who already came out of public schools weren't saddled with crippling debt, enough of them could pay it forward to the broader group than their own elite sc…

In this hypothetical, elite schools would be incentivized to provide something the public schools either do not or cannot provide. Quality of education alone is hard enough to control for. What’s stopping the for-profit elite schools from just raising the bar until public schools simply can’t keep up?

What type of "raising the bar" do you have in mind that would be detrimental if done?

If MIT and Stanford raise the bar on education, isn't that a good thing? Don't we want them to be giving the very best education that they possibly can?

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#66

Post by leetcrew »

MarkMarine wrote: post #18
monero-xmr wrote: post #4

Nothing is “free”. Sometimes the costs are hidden from most people. It’s like immigration. If you say, “anyone who comes here can’t be kicked out and you instantly get access to healthcare, food stamps, and free housing” then your maximum payout is the entire planet and you are bankrupt once people realize this. For public college to be free, I want to limit access, like happens in Europe. Sure college can be free… t…

Honest question, do you have a college degree, and do you think the majority of the population being generally educated is actually a bad thing? I can understand the reaction to the cost, and many people work outside of the degree they majored in, but I do value the general education of the population. It’s been a remarkably uplifting force in society, if you look back over history. I also wonder what that means for…

education is good compared to sitting on your hands for four years. it's not necessarily good compared to all the other things a person could have done in that time or the other ways those resources could have been used.

personally, I don't think that giving every 18yo a full ride to study whatever they feel like for four years is a great use of public funds. I would rather see targeted funding to fill in demonstrable gaps in the labor force.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#67

Post by eatsyourtacos »

monero-xmr wrote: post #42
MarkMarine wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question, do you have a college degree, and do you think the majority of the population being generally educated is actually a bad thing? I can understand the reaction to the cost, and many people work outside of the degree they majored in, but I do value the general education of the population. It’s been a remarkably uplifting force in society, if you look back over history. I also wonder what that means for…

We are talking about taking something that individuals pay for, that costs about $40k in total at affordable schools, and making it totally free for as many people who want it. If additional people want to pay beyond the cap, wonderful. But I don’t see how the financials make any sense otherwise.

I'm just going to default to the: how do you think other countries do it?

I'm really tired of being told "we can't afford to give healthcare" "we can't afford to give higher education" "we can't afford early childcare" "we can't afford maturity leave" "we can't afford guaranteed sick/vacation"

Of course we can. The powers at be don't want that because it levels the playing field, costs them some money, and ultimately makes them less powerful.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#68

Post by flashgordon »

lesam wrote: post #39
flashgordon wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Australian who benefited from a great public college (or as we call it uni) if public schools were free and high quality what would motivate the demand for elite schools? Yes elite schools are still networking grounds. But wouldnt the hope be that if people who already came out of public schools weren't saddled with crippling debt, enough of them could pay it forward to the broader group than their own elite sc…

If you want to be a CEO, it's a lot better to network with the kids of all the CEO's than the kids of the dentists and middle managers, if you can arrange it.

Totally and this is what I imagined elite schools and colleges were providing. Kinda like signalling. But if you don't have the means to hobnob then might as well get educated affordably?

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#69

Post by eatsyourtacos »

superduty wrote: post #3

Teachers don’t work for free, nor do janitors or administrators. Building maintenance and leases aren’t free.

Does it cost you anything to call the police or the fire department? No- it's free to use. You know what it means; stop trying to muddy the waters with disingenuous arguments.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#70

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

superduty wrote: post #3

Teachers don’t work for free, nor do janitors or administrators. Building maintenance and leases aren’t free.

This ridiculous talking point isn't the "gotcha" you think it is, and quite frankly, it's getting exhausting to see it all the time.

Yes, we know, it's not "free" and is paid for by taxes. Likely even increased taxes. Everyone knows this.

And we don't have a problem with it.

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