Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It • Hacker News Board

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#381

Post by Joel_Mckay » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:40 PM UTC

Unless the daily tasks rely on collaboration, cooperation, or diagnostics.

In general 2 site meetings are needed to talk with business ops, and pair up on key challenges.

Remote work becomes less productive with time. People re-discover the 7% rule in text communication (93% of meaning is nonverbal). Also, video chats are about as productive as conferences... fine for 1-to-n instruction... but terrible for n-to-n collaboration.

Admittedly, I'd likely bail too... if forced to go to an office 2 hours away for something non-fun... lol =)

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#382

Post by fullshark » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:40 PM UTC

tgma wrote: post #260

fullshark wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the problem if they get the tasks required of them done? A lot of employers don't want just that, they want a control of the employee's time. Remote means they might not respond to that urgent request immediately like they need to in a face to face conversation. I believe that is the main thing that is so disturbing to these employers that lament remote work, not that productivity is affected.

> What's the problem if they get the tasks required of them done? At least in Software Engineering, tasks are rarely that clear-cut and specific. Yes, as a remote employee you will have enough data to justify "I did what was expected of me," and the employer have no specific performance concerns, but at the same time, I posit that you would have likely done more stuff that was not particularly written handed down to…

Then perhaps we should be more honest about what the concern is and the requirements of our jobs. Employers are paying for you to be on call for 8 hours a day (minimum) not just for your output. You need to be responsive and attentive as part of your job, not complying immediately can result in demerits.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#383

Post by jheriko » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:41 PM UTC

bacza2 wrote: post #110

mc32 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some or many people are just as productive working from home, but also many are not and are more productive in an office environment. There need to be better more reliable ways of measuring this and affording those who are able to be productive while remote the option. Those who aren’t as productive WFH don’t get the choice.

Why it always need to be only about productivity and not what is better for people? I get that company need to make money but surly productivity is not dropping 50% and company makes significantly less

ask yourself that question and answer it.

just what in the hell are you thinking?

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#384

Post by very_good_man » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:41 PM UTC

j-a-a-p wrote: post #284

These kind of blogs do not help remote work argument, it is polarising the discussion. Especially when the advice is to sabotage the company while drawing your own plan. BTW, I completely understand remote workers and I have no issues with the remotes in my team. Take the argument of working in a cheaper state or country. These kind of perks that only IT people have, can easily turn into envy with the majority of the…

Let's bring the rest of workers up to earning like this rather than promulgating envy.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#385

Post by pramsey » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:41 PM UTC

mongol wrote: post #355

What I have noticed after a few years of hybrid work is that I have less strong bonds with my colleagues. I feel more lonely, more isolated. Every day I work from home is convenient and comfortable. I can sleep in, save time in commutes etc. But I miss the camaraderie I used to have. I am only an anecdote in my own life, but I miss some things with office work that is not about working in an office and more about wor…

100% agree. I've been a remote since 2009 (!!) and although it is entirely my "normal" I do remember that it was nice to have co-workers and the rhythms of standard work day. I am a much lonelier person than I was before.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#386

Post by Kaytaro » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:42 PM UTC

tgma wrote: post #116

Remote "work" is fine (with pros and cons). The problem is lots of people don't "work" remotely. Also, inevitably remote/async work flips the priority such that employee would be much more responsive to interrupts/errands of their own life than to focus their full attention on the employer's concerns.

That’s not really exclusive to remote work. I’ve had office jobs where I was extremely effective at not working. At the end of the day underperforming workers will find ways to underperform no matter where they work. Also, depending on the employees home life, there could be much more non-productive distractions in office.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#387

Post by ncallaway » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:42 PM UTC

paulddraper wrote: post #166

strict9 wrote: post #26

>If I had to give only one bit of advice to anyone ever faced with an ultimatum from someone with power over them (be it an employer or abusive romantic partner), it would be: >Ultimately, never choose the one giving you an ultimatum. This is such great advice. When you are given an ultimatum it is very revealing. Pretend to comply as the author advises, then find something else. Your sense of self-worth is more valu…

That's just...weird advice. "Honey, playing WoW 12 hours a day is a dealbreaker for me." "You must enter your information into our new HR system."

I assume all sweeping advice I’m given also comes with a dose of Aristotle’s “golden mean”, or the Greek maxim “nothing in excess”.

Yes, you can construct situations where the ultimatum is reasonable. Yes, you shouldn’t blindly apply this advise all the time without any consideration of the circumstances.

But still, on balance it’s good advise. We all tend to lean too far towards respecting ultimatums from people in power (even when it’s harmful for us). We should collectively shift that balance, and move our default more towards being skeptical of someone giving an ultimatum.

But, yes, when someone gives you advice that comes with a “never” or “always”, it’s usually worth assuming there’s a silent “almost” in there, unless they’re explicit that they mean no exceptions could apply.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#388

Post by asynchronous » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:42 PM UTC

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #126

SSJPython wrote: post #30

I don't understand why there can't be compromise on this? If you want to go to the office, go. If you want to work from home, then work from home. Why is it that remote workers never insist on everyone working from home, but RTO people want every single person to RTO? Just leave it up to the individual worker.

You don’t think there can be compromise until both sides admit their faults. Count the times you see someone arguing WFH while admitting any degree of abuse like we all know it is. To hear people here tell it, they would never do the things we all know happen.

Such as? If RTO is happening I want every company to take back every “great job staying productive through the pandemic” email they sent over the last several years. Either we met the standard for productivity or we didn’t, it can’t be both.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#389

Post by ChicagoBoy11 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:42 PM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #72

This is a classic HN post that will get a lot of positive attention here playing into the HN cognitive bias zeitgeist, but I think is mostly bullshit. The market will settle it in the end, but at least for startups being colocated is a competitive advantage.

On that note, I also did not understand the post about H1B workers. Ostensibly a primary reason for the existence of the visa category in their first place is to fulfill the need for foreign talent that needs to be PRESENT in the US.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#390

Post by pbhjpbhj » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:42 PM UTC

x86x87 wrote: post #4

Two9A wrote: post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

This is not only about before pandemic remote workers. Once people enjoyed the flexibility they aren't going back.

I asked about WFH prior to the pandemic and was told 'oh it won't work for you, ask again when you're in a senior position; you'll never develop without peer-friendships and a senior worker a couple of desks away'. Then we were forced to WFH.

Now, we're being told to do hybrid, but there's no peer friendships because it's hotdesking, and the senior personnel are no longer nearby (they're at home or on a different floor) ... so there's no "return", we're not going back to what we had, we don't have our own desks anymore.

Management acknowledge that office days (we're hybrid) will be low in productivity, but no changes to productivity requirements. It's all about collaboration, except you're next to random people you've never met and you can't talk because it's open plan and you'll disturb everyone.

None of the reasons given for return fit the reality (in my office), but they probably make sense for senior managers (who seem unable to see past the end of their own noses).