Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It • Hacker News Board

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#211

Post by PheonixPharts » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:19 PM UTC

grumblingdev wrote: post #20

Video conf still sucks. It's literally the same as 10 years ago. Does anyone have a workplace where it is really seamless, high resolution, and just works? Or is using any of these new technologies? Maybe VR will help... But not being in-person for collaboration/morale is miles apart. I wonder if employees would personally cover the cost of a one week meetup once per month if their other option was move city and offi…

> But not being in-person for collaboration/morale is miles apart.

I do agree that collaboration is much more productive when remote.

Nearly all of my exciting office "collaborations" end up feeling great then they're happening, but in retrospect, almost always fizzle out after a small window of time. I like onsites for the energy and socialization, but even then I always find most of the work happens back in the hotel room at night, and real planning happens after everyone is back at home. I can't imagine working that way all the time.

Whereas all of my remote collaborations are well documented while they're happening. Typically we have some kind of shared note taking, and writing code collaboratively, etc. Doesn't feel as social sometimes, but tends to be a much larger impact.

Likewise Open Source software has been largely written by remote people since long before the advent of even video conferencing. Git was originally written with the design intention that kernel hackers could work on a plane (per airplane wifi) without requiring a centralized server to communicate with.

> Video conf still sucks. It's literally the same as 10 years ago.

I still marvel at this. I've been working remote for nearly 15 years now and I honestly don't feel that video conferencing has improved noticeably.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#212

Post by RC_ITR » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:19 PM UTC

andrewmutz wrote: post #149

Two9A wrote: post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

Prior to COVID, everyone understood that remote work was supported by some companies and not others. It was also a type of work that was preferred by some employees and not others. As a result, everyone peacefully self-selected into their preferred employment relationships. Companies got the type of workforce they wanted and workers chose the type of environment they wanted. It was great. Today, as some companies are…

These kind of arguments have sort of eaten their tail in recent years as work culture has shifted.

We (as has happened with a lot of things) basically have two camps of people and a culture that makes us believe we are only allowed to make "one-or-the-other" choices (I blame the rise of consulting, KPIs, and 'benchmarks'.)

So two camps are arguing about their preferences but with the stakes that "my preference has to be the moral and logical choice," which will always just lead to nowhere.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#213

Post by aidenn0 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:19 PM UTC

I prefer in-person work; I have great respect for those who were able to maintain their productivity when suddenly forced to WFH.

It makes a great deal of sense for managers to check in with each employee for which remote is now the new normal. Perhaps either formalize the remote work as part of the job description or come up with a plan to return on a case-by-case basis.

It's absolutely bonkers to force people who were specifically hired as remote-workers prior to the pandemic to relocate.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#214

Post by icedchai » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:20 PM UTC

dinkblam wrote: post #33

grumblingdev wrote: post #20

Video conf still sucks. It's literally the same as 10 years ago. Does anyone have a workplace where it is really seamless, high resolution, and just works? Or is using any of these new technologies? Maybe VR will help... But not being in-person for collaboration/morale is miles apart. I wonder if employees would personally cover the cost of a one week meetup once per month if their other option was move city and offi…

> Video conf still sucks Audio calls also still suck. Commercials in the 90s advertised "crystal clear audio quality" - they stopped talking about it but it never materialised.

More like it de-materialized. Unless there was a physical line problem, regular old phone calls over copper lines ("POTS") worked well. They were circuit switched, not packet switched. You essentially had a dedicated path provisioned, end to end. Today, POTS is all but gone. Almost nobody has a real landline. Most phone calls are transported over IP. I converted my landline to VOIP almost a decade ago. It's fine.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#215

Post by MisterBastahrd » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:20 PM UTC

tschellenbach wrote: post #87

The discussion here tends to ignore the posts about people working multiple jobs or not working 40 hours a week remotely. Can't have your cake and eat it too

Yes. Because they're an edge case and most of us probably have good enough common sense not to punish everyone because a few people are assholes.

If you are an employer and someone manages to stay employed under your leadership while having multiple jobs, that's on you.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#216

Post by obmelvin » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:20 PM UTC

andrewmutz wrote: post #149

Two9A wrote: post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

Prior to COVID, everyone understood that remote work was supported by some companies and not others. It was also a type of work that was preferred by some employees and not others. As a result, everyone peacefully self-selected into their preferred employment relationships. Companies got the type of workforce they wanted and workers chose the type of environment they wanted. It was great. Today, as some companies are…

I don't think it's realistic to say things should just return to the status quo. The world was changed by the pandemic and even if that didn't happen, time continues to advance which always brings change as well.

Yes, some companies will go back to hybrid or complete in person, but it is also clear that remote work can be done in a much wider context than it was before the pandemic.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#217

Post by throwanem » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:20 PM UTC

paulddraper wrote: post #166

strict9 wrote: post #26

>If I had to give only one bit of advice to anyone ever faced with an ultimatum from someone with power over them (be it an employer or abusive romantic partner), it would be: >Ultimately, never choose the one giving you an ultimatum. This is such great advice. When you are given an ultimatum it is very revealing. Pretend to comply as the author advises, then find something else. Your sense of self-worth is more valu…

That's just...weird advice. "Honey, playing WoW 12 hours a day is a dealbreaker for me." "You must enter your information into our new HR system."

Well, yes. Advice given to address one circumstance often does not apply in another, wholly different circumstance.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#218

Post by some_furry » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:21 PM UTC

paulddraper wrote: post #166

strict9 wrote: post #26

>If I had to give only one bit of advice to anyone ever faced with an ultimatum from someone with power over them (be it an employer or abusive romantic partner), it would be: >Ultimately, never choose the one giving you an ultimatum. This is such great advice. When you are given an ultimatum it is very revealing. Pretend to comply as the author advises, then find something else. Your sense of self-worth is more valu…

That's just...weird advice. "Honey, playing WoW 12 hours a day is a dealbreaker for me." "You must enter your information into our new HR system."

It's only weird if you assume any choice or dichotomy is also an ultimatum.

An ultimatum is a my way or the highway choice. "Submit or suffer".

Negotiating how much time you invest into the relationship isn't an ultimatum. "Quit WoW entirely or I'm getting a divorce" is.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#219

Post by stalfosknight » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:21 PM UTC

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #53

I’ll know this “counter argument” isn’t bullshit when people finally admit they know full well a large portion of people abuse WFH. Until I see honesty on this, I am uninterested. No one ever admits: - I basically work 20-30 hours a week! - They have no idea when I’m actually working. - I was going to quit but I’m going to let them just keep paying me. - I have at least one side job and I won’t be able to do it if I…

All's fair in love and capitalism.

As long as employers have no problem with subjecting people to bullshit dehumanizing hiring processes, tone-deaf ultimatums, showering executives with disgusting bonuses while buying back stock and laying off workers, etc etc etc, then I don't see a problem with any of the above.

I refuse to continue to normalize this idea that employers are allowed to be dicks and you the worker just have to suck it up.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#220

Post by hypeit » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:21 PM UTC

andrewmutz wrote: post #149

Two9A wrote: post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

Prior to COVID, everyone understood that remote work was supported by some companies and not others. It was also a type of work that was preferred by some employees and not others. As a result, everyone peacefully self-selected into their preferred employment relationships. Companies got the type of workforce they wanted and workers chose the type of environment they wanted. It was great. Today, as some companies are…

> It was also a type of work that was preferred by some employees and not others.

The labor market has changed. Many people got to try WFH and fell in love with it. Not everyone, but a huge number that had never been exposed to it before.

Now if a business wants to stay competitive they need to tap into that labor market. The vocal resistance to RTO is expected, we'll never go back to having such a large percentage of the work force working in an office. It's just that a lot of managers haven't figured that out yet and/or are personally incentivized to keep up the charade.