Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour • Hacker News Board

Re: Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour

#141

Post by Vinnl » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:10 AM UTC

wink wrote: post #133

Vinnl wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many (also newer) urban areas in the Netherlands, narrow streets and cobbles are used intentionally to encourage lower speeds. The "30" sign is more of a last resort in that sense.

cycling on cobblestone sucks though, so not sure how that really works out :P (Let's assume there's no dedicated cycle path next to the cobblestone road, guess it depends)

Ah sorry, I was actually thinking of paving stones - but it still holds that those are usually used to encourage lower driving speeds than asphalt, and are way more comfortable than cobblestones for cycling.

You also see asphalt in use more and more often in streets where the number of cyclists are significant enough that cars are forced to drive slowly anyway.

Re: Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour

#142

Post by Vinnl » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:11 AM UTC

okokwhatever wrote: post #90

Vinnl wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"City" is a broad term, encompassing e.g. NYC, but also Amsterdam, with a population of a mere 900k. Most parts of Amsterdam are really pretty quiet when there are no/few/slow-driving cars.

Its so funny everybody is talking just about Amsterdam. Try this in Rome and then lets talk again. Guys, you´re forgetting cities are cultural places not robot factories. Cultural and existential differences are real and shouldn't be imposed by law just to recall quietness in a crowded place like a city in Europe where people live in the streets as a cultural thing. We´re constantly educating the population by law an…

Plenty of people living in the streets in Amsterdam as well (and that number is only rising as cars are made less prominent), but that "noise" is of a significantly different quality than car noise is.

When I said "pretty quiet", I didn't mean "completely silent", I just meant that it doesn't feel noisy.

(Though I don't recall anyone suggesting the law should be used to enforce people to be silent.)

Re: Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour

#143

Post by irdc » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:16 AM UTC

okokwhatever wrote: post #95

pjc50 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's probably going to end up banned as well, as it was in New York, in order to let people live in the city.

Something inside me tells this won't happen everywhere. Real people with problems to pay rent and buy a house cannot afford (like us) live in the center of a city anymore and wont be in the near future. Mandating 30kph everywhere will make people more and more resistant to live in the cities moving out and leaving the center for the hipsters with their avocado toasts. This is gentrification.

> Real people with problems to pay rent and buy a house cannot afford (like us) live in the center of a city anymore and wont be in the near future.

People who don't have a car aren't real people?

Re: Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour

#144

Post by shortcake27 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:22 AM UTC

okokwhatever wrote: post #41

pastyboy wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less pollution not so much, everyone will be in 2nd gear, less deaths perhaps.

Is demonstrated pollution with such slow speed will increase dramatically. Next stage, take out cars from the center of the cities totally. Good luck if you bought there a house to take your kids to the college or to go to a better supermarket. Airbnb is rubbing hands

I don’t understand this comment. In a city like Amsterdam you certainly don’t need a car to go to the supermarket or college. I’ve lived in cities with far worse public transport and no car and had no issues.

Re: Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour

#145

Post by matsemann » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:23 AM UTC

pakitan wrote: post #104

mcv wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is by far the biggest reason for the preference for 30 km/h. Reduced noise and pollution are certainly nice, but killing far less people is huge.

Why not reduce speed to 10km/h then? Even fewer people will be killed! This is the covid logic all over again. Let's lock everyone in their homes, we can't afford to have old people dying! Also, no, ICE cars generally don't pollute less at 30km/h, compared to 50km/h. Engine does the same work, just at lower gear.

Did you see the graph in my comment? There's a steep curve beginning a bit over 30 km/h. Hence great impact per km/h reduction at those higher speeds. Not as much when going even even lower. Most people don't think in extremes, and are actually capable to think of the various tradeoffs. No need to be so hyperbolic..

I'd like some streets to be 20 km/h as well, though. But that is because those streets should be for pedestrians / kids / those living there, and not for traffic.

Re: Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour

#146

Post by mcv » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:25 AM UTC

okokwhatever wrote: post #90

Vinnl wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"City" is a broad term, encompassing e.g. NYC, but also Amsterdam, with a population of a mere 900k. Most parts of Amsterdam are really pretty quiet when there are no/few/slow-driving cars.

Its so funny everybody is talking just about Amsterdam. Try this in Rome and then lets talk again. Guys, you´re forgetting cities are cultural places not robot factories. Cultural and existential differences are real and shouldn't be imposed by law just to recall quietness in a crowded place like a city in Europe where people live in the streets as a cultural thing. We´re constantly educating the population by law an…

Well, the article is about Amsterdam.

But Amsterdam also has plenty of noise that doesn't come from cars. Some bars and and similar venues can produce quite a lot of noise. You don't want to live upstairs from one of those if you're a light sleeper who goes to bed early. People living there also complain a lot about tourists in the red light districts.

But all of that noise is very local. The people living there know that this is an issue, but it's only an issue for people in the immediately vicinity. Of course tourist hotspots will be noisy, but cars go everywhere.

The amount of noise coming from car traffic is significant, and it's directly related to the speed of cars. The A10 ring road around Amsterdam is 100 km/h in most places, but the west ring goes straight through a very dense residential part of the city, and for that reason, it's I think the only snelweg in the country that's limited to 80 km/h. Which still produces a lot of noise, so it's also surrounded by massive sound barriers. Somehow we don't put those sound barriers around every cafe.

Re: Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour

#147

Post by rsynnott » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:25 AM UTC

the-dude wrote: post #8

mcv wrote: post #4

The title makes it sound like streets in Amsterdam currently don't have a 30 km/h speed limit, and after December, they will all have a 30 km/h speed limit. The reality is that a lot of streets already have a 30 km/h speed limit, and have had them for years. It's been slowly expanding, and clearly will continue to expand even more. There will still be roads with higher speed limits, but their number will shrink. I ex…

> the city will install almost 5,000 new speed signs, adjust 170 traffic lights How is 5000 signs 'slowly' ?

Let's say the city has 100 maintenance workers (surely it has more than that?) At five a day per person (assuming there are existing posts, this feels on the low side) you'd be done in two weeks.

Re: Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour

#148

Post by matsemann » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:27 AM UTC

okokwhatever wrote: post #36

KBme wrote: post #5

Yes! This will save at least 3 lives a year! Even one life counts!

Cities are not a place for me live anymore. Airbnb, Uber, Uber-eats, delivery robots, security cameras everywhere, gentrification, poverty... It's ok if you guys feel this is normal but for me it´s too much. Cities were vibrant places to share experiences that today are a complete mess of zombies taking pictures for the trendy social network. And this is just one more drop to make cities more soulless and "2030 ready…

You got cause and effect completely backwards. The "soulless" cities are the cities full of cars and asphalt. The nice cities are the ones where people can use the city, where communities gather outside, there are markets, people eating by the curbside, kids playing. Where the city isn't dominated by the cars.

Re: Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour

#149

Post by mcv » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:28 AM UTC

xenospn wrote: post #117

okokwhatever wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cities arent noisy?? where do you live lucky mate? I feel you guys live in an echo chamber full of avocado toasts and cappuccinos. Cities are crowded places full of noise pollution produced by humans being humans. Thats all. If people require silence go to the deep country. Next step, everybody shut the f... up to not bother the Karens.

I’m literally sitting in the middle of a midsize German city right now. It’s a Monday morning and blissfully quiet. What you’re describing sounds more like the Middle East or Asia to me.

My limited experience with cities in the Middle East and Asia is that the noise there also comes first and foremost from traffic, and those cities could also benefit from a less car-centric design.

Re: Amsterdam preparing to lower speed limit to 30 kilometers per hour

#150

Post by rsynnott » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 10:28 AM UTC

nvm0n2 wrote: post #100

pjc50 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they wouldn't. We're deep into post-evidence politics. In all these cases the decisions have been explained, in the normal place, but that's too boring to share on social media so nobody hears it.

The decisions haven't really been explained by the standards of explanation you might expect for such a move, at least not everywhere. In Wales the official explanation is: Welsh ministers said a 20mph (32km/h) limit would reduce deaths and noise and encourage people to walk or cycle [1]. Drakeford elaborated by saying "It's going to take you a minute longer to make your journey, and we will save 10 people's lives in…

> It could just as well apply to a limit of 5mph, or 10mph, or banning cars completely. It explains the desire to lower the limit but not the choice of 20mph vs 30mph.

Banning cars completely wouldn't be particularly practical. Death rate increases pretty dramatically after about 20mph/30kph. Do not let the perfect become the enemy of the good, here. 30kph in urban areas is about a sweet spot; it makes things a _lot_ safer but doesn't impact the utility of the cars that much.