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Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

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Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#501

Post by TheBigSalad »

bmitc wrote: post #402
TheBigSalad wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a fact that EVs are better for the environment and will be even more better once certain infrastructure is built out. There's no reason to shit on an improvement just because it's not a cure. The data is a quick search away if you're actually interested.

Well, I have looked, so if you don't mind pointing to data that addresses what I mentioned then that would be appreciated. It is hard to find, but what I have found is that EVs cross over, in terms of emissions, around 6-24 months into ownership over ICE vehicles. This accounts for manufacturing to use. As far as I could tell, it does not take into account the new mining required, the new manufacturing centers, the n…

Did you know the lithium in batteries is 95% recyclable? So even if lithium mining is dirty, the amount needed for 2 cars might actually be used in 8 or more cars over time. Hopefully we find something even better for batteries.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#502

Post by [deleted] »

yokem55 wrote: post #383
wizofaus wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd only add "...because they're incredibly useful, AND government policy has consistently favoured such a mode of transport over all other alternatives". The amount spent by governments on maintaining road infrastructure dwarfs all other transport spending, the amount of land dedicated to parking and driving space is mindboggling, and of course the amount spent on ensuring the global oil industry has been able to re…

You aren't wrong that government support of automotive transport is immense. But that government support comes from decades of popular electoral support for those policies from all across of the political spectrum. Why? Because cars give people more convenient and independent transportation then just about any other mode. And people push their politicians and representatives to support that kind of transportation. If…

[deleted]

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#503

Post by Foreignborn »

avalys wrote: post #309
trgn wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bold ideas are welcome. Burrying heads in the sand not an option. It's simple. It's more mobility options, especially safe active transportation. EVs are still cars. It's a change in the margin. What is really needed is people biking, walking for their daily errands instead of using a car. As for the safe part, it does not require anything special. The aspirational world of the future will be made real with bollard…

You're basically saying that you want to force everyone to live in a city - a super dense developed area where all your daily needs are within walking distance. Not everyone wants to live in a city!

People are free to live where they want, but should pay for the full externalities that these lifestyles cost.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#504

Post by kibwen »

badtension wrote: post #249
mlsu wrote: post #166

Has anyone here ever lived near a freeway or even moderately busy road? I made the mistake of renting next to the freeway. Noise was perfectly tolerable, but I could not use my back porch, because after just a few weeks, everything had a fine coating of black dust. I could not keep my windows open in the summer. I was certainly breathing this vile shit the entire time I lived there. This doesn't surprise me in the le…

That's why so many people are cautious about "EVs to save us all", to put it mildly. We are so focused on climate change and greenhouse gases that we do not see a lot of other issues and may exacerbate some of them in the process of decarbonisation.

EVs could "save us all" if we got over the meme of "range anxiety" and realized that a majority of Americans (who drive more than anyone else) drive less than 40 miles a day, and sized batteries appropriately, especially in dense urban environments. https://electrek.co/2023/03/22/wink-motors-test-drive-electr...

There's no reason that an EV needs to weigh as much as a Sherman tank.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#505

Post by jfim »

lobocinza wrote: post #474
HWR_14 wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EVs don't have to be heavier. If people mostly drove a low range EV it could use significantly smaller batteries.

If a low range EV is enough 100% just buy a bike.

Coming from a place where I'd bike nine months of the year as my primary mode of transportation, I tried it in the bay area and got hit by a car after a few months. So I got a car, even though I'd much rather bike.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#506

Post by michaelteter »

crazygringo wrote: post #371
kylebenzle wrote: post #15

I worked on a phd for 4 years looking into this problem indirectly and for a decade at Ohio State they have had working solutions to the tire dust issue but it is IMPOSSIBLE to get funding. A Billion dollar industry and NO ONE cares about cleaning it up if it means increasing costs by 5% or more. It has been WELL KNOWN for 50 years! We are basically aerosolizing carbon in MASSIVE amounts right where we live and work.…

> the solution is natural rubber, which costs slight more than synthetic rubber but lasts longer. So its better for consumers, cheaper all around, and 1,000x better for the environment Is it? I'm Googling but can't find any evidence for that. Natural rubber tires still produce tons of dust, I can't find any reference to it being less harmful in our lungs, and even natural tire rubber seems to biodegrade on the order…

> I'm Googling but can't find any evidence for that.

I'm sorry, but the parent poster said they have been studying in this domain for 4+ years (including PhD research), and you present doubt because your Google searches are unconvincing?

What would it take to convince you?

You do realize that what you find on the first 10 pages of Google (or other) search engines could be junk or intentionally targeted misinformation, right?

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#507

Post by acjohnson55 »

mlsu wrote: post #166

Has anyone here ever lived near a freeway or even moderately busy road? I made the mistake of renting next to the freeway. Noise was perfectly tolerable, but I could not use my back porch, because after just a few weeks, everything had a fine coating of black dust. I could not keep my windows open in the summer. I was certainly breathing this vile shit the entire time I lived there. This doesn't surprise me in the le…

I used to live on a busy parkway in Brooklyn and the grime that would collect on our 4th floor window sill was gnarly. I'm guessing each floor downward would have been worse.

I'm also guessing that simply walking around the city and being in the subway is also pretty bad. Separating the tracks from the platform with doors would probably help with that.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#508

Post by somerandomqaguy »

adrianN wrote: post #497
bmitc wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the noise from cars is mostly friction and turbulence Agreed. I can't even hear the engine in my car on the highway over tire and wind noise.

EVs are significantly less noisy on residential streets though. You know, where people live.

Only below 18mph or 30kph.

> As required by the PSEA, (1) this rule proposes to establish FMVSS No.141, Minimum Sound Requirements for Hybrid and Electric Vehicles, which would require [quiet vehicles] to produce sounds meeting the requirements of this standard. This proposed standard applies to EVs and to those HVs that are capable of propulsion in any forward or reverse gear without the vehicle's ICE operating. The PSEA requires NHTSA to establish performance requirements for an alert sound that is recognizable as motor vehicle in operation that allows blind and other pedestrians to reasonably detect a nearby EV or HV operating below the crossover speed. The crossover speed is the speed at which tire noise, wind noise, and other factors eliminate the need for a separate alert sound.

>[...]

> This standard will ensure that blind, visually-impaired, and other pedestrians are able to detect and recognize nearby hybrid and electric vehicles by requiring that hybrid and electric vehicles emit sound that pedestrians will be able to hear in a range of ambient environments and contain acoustic signal content that pedestrians will recognize as being emitted from a vehicle. The proposed standard establishes minimum sound requirements for hybrid and electric vehicles when operating under 30 kilometers per hour (km/h) (18 mph), when the vehicle's starting system is activated but the vehicle is stationary, and when the vehicle is operating in reverse.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/NHTSA-2011-0148-0075

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#509

Post by Kirby64 »

ehnto wrote: post #440
Kirby64 wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The car noise problem is partially solved (or improved) by EVs, actually. The tires used on EVs tend to be efficient (low rolling resistance), which translates to less noisy tires. Additionally, their body shape tends to aim towards very aerodynamic so they have less turbulence noise. If they didn't do this, their efficiency would be much worse so it essentially becomes a necessity. It's pretty evident when you drive…

I think it is marginally reduced, definitely not solved. It also depends on the tires a consumer puts on their EV once it leaves the factory, and anything about 50kmph is still very noisy. I think that is good in one aspect though, road noise is the only warning you get that an EV is approaching, which in a PED/Cylcing friendly city is important.

EVs already need to make noise at 19mph or under in the US.

Personally, I'd prefer strongly if road noise were eliminated entirely. It'd lead to a better society broadly by reducing noise pollution. Ped/cyclist safety is better handled by other policies than "just make more noise" IMO.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#510

Post by golem14 »

epivosism wrote: post #214
richjdsmith wrote: post #23

With the continued shift to EVs, petrol taxes just don't make sense as a form of taxation to pay for roads. I think we should be shifting entirely to a gross curb weight tax for all vehicles. The fourth power law states that the greater the axle load of a vehicle, the stress on the road caused by the motor vehicle increases in proportion to the fourth power of the axle load. Meaning heavier EVs cough hummer , are doi…

Isn't the proper tax on tires? The more you shed, the faster they need replacement. So cars which shed a lot of microplastics would both use up more tires, AND would pay more tax. So as the tax increases we correctly linearly decrease tire use. It would be a mistake to over-punish EV users compared to ICE just because the average weight of an EV is heavier. (We know the weights, we don't need to average by class) Thi…

Then you get a lot of people keeping their old tires far longer than is safe and creating hazardous conditions. Gas tax is different in that regard.
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