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Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

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Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#241

Post by donkeybeer »

smoldesu wrote: post #239
scarface_74 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“8 with some gotchas”. That’s a rousing endorsement of open standards.

You have no idea what you're talking about. 1. Your Bluetooth radio determines how many simultaneous connections you get. It is at least 2 on Bluetooth 4.0+. 2. You are conflating cloud pairing (Apple's feature) with multipoint pairing (everyone's feature). They coexist. 3. 8 devices is generally the hard limit on all consumer Bluetooth radios, from the iPhone to Nintendo Switch.

I don't even get the point of these hardcore Apple defenders tbh man. You are not Apple, and you only gain to benefit from if supposedly they have good hardware and software, it also becomes more open for you or others to find better uses for it. You only gain not lose from that. Here on an HN linked article I was reading how Asahi managed to find and fix some audio bug in a macbook model. When multiple people are working on drivers often the foss can end up being superior to the drivers made by the manufacturer.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#242

Post by smoldesu »

scarface_74 wrote: post #227
PrimeMcFly wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your suggestion makes a ton of sense. It's astounding how many HN people are so hardcore capitalists to be against such a simple suggestion.

It’s not hard core capitalism. It’s that geeks hate when people make their own choices without government interference because normal people don’t care that they can’t run Linux on the Apple Pencil. It’s also naiveté to think that government power isn’t the most dangerous kind of power imaginable even though almost every law proposed by the government with regards to tech is roundly criticized by the same people.

> It’s also naiveté to think that government power isn’t the most dangerous kind of power imaginable

That's only true if the market isn't free. If private businesses are not kept in check, they can (and have) overthrown government power. Ask me how I know!

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#243

Post by scarface_74 »

smoldesu wrote: post #238
scarface_74 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think that’s the argument you think it is. Thought experiment, grab a random USB C cable, now tell me: 1. What speed can you transfer data through it? 2. How much power can it deliver? 3. Can it support video over USB C? 4. Say a random device comes with a USB-A cable on one side and a USB-c on the other. Now take a standard usb c/usb c cable, will it always charge the device? Also when that same government f…

> Thought experiment, grab a random USB C cable, now tell me Oh, easy. Apple already solved this one; if it has the Thunderbolt logo, it's maxed out. If it's anything else, you're usually getting at least 5w charging and USB 2.0 speeds. In other words, the worst-case scenario is usually slightly better than Lightning.

It’s not that simple. A cable has to support video which is separate from the speed.

So your solution to making sure that you get the most compatibility is to buy Apple cables for Apple devices…meet the new boss.

I’m slightly trolling. I have these….

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B093YVRHMB

I travel with a portable monitor that gets power and video from one USB-c cable. It works with both my personal MacBook Air and my work Windows laptop.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#244

Post by scarface_74 »

smoldesu wrote: post #239
scarface_74 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“8 with some gotchas”. That’s a rousing endorsement of open standards.

You have no idea what you're talking about. 1. Your Bluetooth radio determines how many simultaneous connections you get. It is at least 2 on Bluetooth 4.0+. 2. You are conflating cloud pairing (Apple's feature) with multipoint pairing (everyone's feature). They coexist. 3. 8 devices is generally the hard limit on all consumer Bluetooth radios, from the iPhone to Nintendo Switch.

Yes, that’s true if you rely on the “open” standard.

Luckily I don’t have to because I use an integrated solution where the hardware, software and OS are made by the same company.

We aren’t talking about “simultaneous” connections we are talking about switching between them.

I’m not “confusing” anything. I’m saying that Apple’s integrated solution provides a better user experience. No one cares about how it’s done .

Thanks for making my point for me.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#245

Post by scarface_74 »

donkeybeer wrote: post #241
smoldesu wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no idea what you're talking about. 1. Your Bluetooth radio determines how many simultaneous connections you get. It is at least 2 on Bluetooth 4.0+. 2. You are conflating cloud pairing (Apple's feature) with multipoint pairing (everyone's feature). They coexist. 3. 8 devices is generally the hard limit on all consumer Bluetooth radios, from the iPhone to Nintendo Switch.

I don't even get the point of these hardcore Apple defenders tbh man. You are not Apple, and you only gain to benefit from if supposedly they have good hardware and software, it also becomes more open for you or others to find better uses for it. You only gain not lose from that. Here on an HN linked article I was reading how Asahi managed to find and fix some audio bug in a macbook model. When multiple people are wo…

So every single “open” standard seems to suck compared to the integrated solution.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#247

Post by smoldesu »

donkeybeer wrote: post #241
smoldesu wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no idea what you're talking about. 1. Your Bluetooth radio determines how many simultaneous connections you get. It is at least 2 on Bluetooth 4.0+. 2. You are conflating cloud pairing (Apple's feature) with multipoint pairing (everyone's feature). They coexist. 3. 8 devices is generally the hard limit on all consumer Bluetooth radios, from the iPhone to Nintendo Switch.

I don't even get the point of these hardcore Apple defenders tbh man. You are not Apple, and you only gain to benefit from if supposedly they have good hardware and software, it also becomes more open for you or others to find better uses for it. You only gain not lose from that. Here on an HN linked article I was reading how Asahi managed to find and fix some audio bug in a macbook model. When multiple people are wo…

This website is not a serious place. Intelligent people are not attracted to a platform calling itself "Hacker News" - roleplayers and onlookers get sucked in instead. Venture capitalists and entrepreneurs get tricked into thinking that this is problem-solving. DogTV™ gets funded and busts out, destitute shareholders and makers go looking for the next big thing. The cycle continues.

With some people, I have no idea where they fall on the spectrum of self-serious argumentation. I usually don't even care; pretty much all feedback is valuable on a forum like this. When people preclude good-faith discussion around Apple hardware with weaksauce rhetoric though, it's pretty obvious that they're putting their emotions first. I'll field any discussion around Apple and their altruism, but I won't accept petty greed or speculation as a defense. They're an opaque company that deserves the scrutiny they recieve, regardless of the unofficial rationale people roll out.

This problem isn't specific to Apple hardware, or really the tech industry as a whole. Every field has it's pundits; you can usually identify them when they use weak rhetoric and avoid directly addressing your argument. It's still especially bad with Apple technology though, since so little of it is documented well enough to definitively refute any claim. You can't corroborate behavior on your iPhone with source code, or visit the iCloud datacenters to ensure everything is being handled with white gloves. People who know the platform well usually know that there is no definitive answer, and inflammatory riff-raff discussions float to the top.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#248

Post by KirillPanov »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

> Now the complicated part is how to define a company. We don't want a single company to just split itself into 2 legal entities

HN routinely seems unaware that this is a totally solved problem in the tax law of virtually every industrialized country.

In the US, for example, the phrase is "Common Control": https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/26/1.414(c)-2

All sorts of modern tax schemes would have truck-sized loopholes without a rigorous definition of Common Control. It's already in the tax code of every industrialized country (possibly under a different name). All you have to do is reference it. The necessary definitions have been in the tax codes since the 1980s.

I'm kind of annoyed at how often this "but but but two companies with overlapping owners yadda yadda" comes up. Go ahead try that on the IRS and see how it works out for you.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#249

Post by smoldesu »

scarface_74 wrote: post #244
smoldesu wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no idea what you're talking about. 1. Your Bluetooth radio determines how many simultaneous connections you get. It is at least 2 on Bluetooth 4.0+. 2. You are conflating cloud pairing (Apple's feature) with multipoint pairing (everyone's feature). They coexist. 3. 8 devices is generally the hard limit on all consumer Bluetooth radios, from the iPhone to Nintendo Switch.

Yes, that’s true if you rely on the “open” standard. Luckily I don’t have to because I use an integrated solution where the hardware, software and OS are made by the same company. We aren’t talking about “simultaneous” connections we are talking about switching between them. I’m not “confusing” anything. I’m saying that Apple’s integrated solution provides a better user experience. No one cares about how it’s done .…

Quite literally, the only point you have made is that iCloud can store Bluetooth MAC addresses across devices.

> No one cares about how it’s done .

Some markets do: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...

Next though, you'll tell me that those democratically elected officials aren't "people", and are more profit-motivated than a business. Whatever helps you sleep at night, I suppose.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#250

Post by jandrese »

scarface_74 wrote: post #216
jandrese wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was largely hardware issues. In particular without a way to negotiate between drivers conflicts were doomed to happen regardless of who was writing the driver, especially with the relatively small number of resources to pull from.

And yet, Apple’s integrated solution didn’t have those issues with the Apple // in 1977 yet alone the Mac II with Nubus in 1987.

Yeah, PC clones were a right mess. The ISA bus was extremely primitive, even by the standards of the day. There is a reason the PCI bus was such a breath of fresh air.
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