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Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

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Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#201

Post by loup-vaillant »

unix_fan wrote: post #194
loup-vaillant wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could carve out exceptions for specific niches. Ugly, but could work. Who says the software has to be open? It would be better for sure, but companies may be interested in selling software for assistive technologies. Interest may go up if the barrier to entry lowers. Undocumented hardware is quite the turn off.

You can't really sell software for running a braille display on its own, for example. As for interest going up, I doubt that very much, as linux is still lacking good vision accessibility, such as a screen reader that doesn't brake with every update to the gnome desktop. windows and macOS figured that one out years ago, and the only decent open source screen reader is windows only.

Braille displays were precisely on my mind: there is a sizeable community of blind programmers out there. And realistically: how hard could it be to operate such a device? The thing is basically a super-low resolution screen with an abysmal refresh rate. A sufficient design could be a serial interface where you send all the pixels in a single packet. Or perhaps we could go fancy with modifying single characters or shifting the display left or right… done right, writing a driver for this thing is nearly trivial, to the point of being possible in user-space.

One reason for the blight of the blind here is the ludicrous complexity of the software, much of it comes from the ludicrous complexity and diversity of hardware interfaces, such that there is no competition and everything is terrible.

Most people however sharply underestimate the mountain of avoidable complexity we've accreted over the decades. I would situate it between 99% and 99.9% for personal computing. No silver bullet perhaps, but I know almost for a fact that there's enough silver dust around to gather 2 or 3 bullets.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#202

Post by the_third_wave »

askonomm wrote: post #181
the_third_wave wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sounds like it needs a special program and configuration, which is not needed on Apple devices How else would it work across different devices? Apple devices can not connect to e.g. Android devices without a 'special program and configuration' nor can they do so with Linux or Windows or whatever other devices. > Also, KDE Connect needs both devices to be in the same network - which is not needed for Apple devices K…

> How else would it work across different devices? Apple devices can not connect to e.g. Android devices I was talking about Mac and iPhone having seamless integration - something I have not noticed of any other ecosystem. I have not been able to share clipboards with an android and a PC (Win and Linux) without installing an app, or doing some other hacky things. The integration, while possible, doesn't exist by defa…

> I have not been able to share clipboards with an android and a PC (Win and Linux) without installing an app, or doing some other hacky things

How else would this type of interchange work between disparate systems other than by equipping all systems with a piece of software to bridge the gap? In what way is this a problem and what makes it 'hacky'? When you want to use your Apple-device to interact with something non-Apple you install a piece of software to enable this interaction - that was the premise of a 'smart phone' after all, a device which' functionality can be extended by installing software? This in contrast to a 'feature phone' where all functionality has been baked in by the manufacturer/distributor. You seem to be using your Apple devices more in the way of the latter - using only manufacturer-provided functionality.

> I don't want to use a VPN? I want to use my regular home wifi or phone network, like a normal person.

I do not want to use 'the cloud' and Bluetooth in ways I do not have control over [1] - as I said, to each his own?

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2020/02/26/simple-ap...

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#203

Post by thomastjeffery »

olliej wrote: post #184
loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

So your saying apple would have to stop making operating systems? Or are you saying Qualcomm would be required to not provide drivers? This is a super dumb take, like beyond stupid, and I get that it’s directed at apple. Here’s the thing: since day 1 apple has been a hardware company, and what makes hardware good or bad is often the software that drives runs it. That goes for every product apple makes. The idea that…

The same people who are currently working on hardware for Apple would be working for a new company that makes hardware, and the new Apple Software Co. would continue to work with those people just as closely as they always have.

The only difference is that Microsoft Windows, Linux kernel devs, etc. would also be able to work with that hardware company to get their OS working on that hardware.

The hardware company would not be allowed to keep secrets between itself and Apple.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#204

Post by tbrownaw »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #191
tbrownaw wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> either they only sell hardware in the EU, or they only sell software. Intel and microsoft would have no problem. Intel has microcode. Microsoft has Xbox which I'd guess would have issues getting game releases if excluded from a decent-sized market. Also. My phone (hardware) came with an OS (software) already installed. As do other pre-assembled computers.

Microcode can be non-configurable. I'm willing to sacrifice the business model of game consoles. I hate OEM deals, it just propagates the current monopolies and oligopolies. I'm okay with forcing everyone to buy their phone or laptop separately from the OS.

> Microcode can be non-configurable.

Some of the Spectre bugs were patched via microcode.

That seems like a rather useful ability to have.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#205

Post by loup-vaillant »

olliej wrote: post #184
loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

So your saying apple would have to stop making operating systems? Or are you saying Qualcomm would be required to not provide drivers? This is a super dumb take, like beyond stupid, and I get that it’s directed at apple. Here’s the thing: since day 1 apple has been a hardware company, and what makes hardware good or bad is often the software that drives runs it. That goes for every product apple makes. The idea that…

> * So your saying apple would have to stop making operating systems?*

No. That's only 1 of 3 alternatives, the other 2 being stop making hardware, or split in 2.

> Or are you saying Qualcomm would be required to not provide drivers?

Yes. They'd have to provide an actual manual for a change.

> This is a super dumb take, like beyond stupid, and I get that it’s directed at apple.

It's not. Many more would have to rethink their entire business model.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#206

Post by loup-vaillant »

stainablesteel wrote: post #156
loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

interesting premise, but i ultimately think this would be worse for the tech by forcing them to play in a limited playing field that doesn't have parallel in other businesses, does it?

Oh but it does have parallel in other businesses. Splitting oil companies being one of the oldest examples. Rockefeller reportedly became richer as a result, so it wasn't even a socialist move.

Another feature of forbidding vertical integration is that is prevents companies from competing with their own customers.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#207

Post by PrimeMcFly »

scarface_74 wrote: post #65
vegetablepotpie wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this idea because it’s incredibly American. If we’re going to go full on free-market, we might as well live up to those principles. There is precedent for this idea, in 1948 the Supreme Court forced the film studios to give up exhibition (theaters) with the paramount decision. This enabled the rise of independent film, and audiences benefited from more choice. If you try to do this legislatively the Apples and…

There are so many flawed analogies here it’s hard to know where to start. How will it make my everyday experience better as an Apple customer without the integration of software and hardware between my Mac, iPads Watch, Airpods and phone? Windows laptops are worse in every vector than MacBooks. No consumer is asking for this. So you want to degrade the user experience for “freedom” by giving the government more power…

> Windows laptops are worse in every vector than MacBooks.

Plainly not true. Some are better hardware/quality wise. All are better when it comes to freedom with what you can actually do with the device.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#208

Post by scarface_74 »

smoldesu wrote: post #192
scarface_74 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh god, talking about design by committee. Why not just cut out the middle man and let the government take it over and come up with “5 year plans”

Design-by-committee doesn't sound half-bad if it can standardize a single serial cable that doesn't have licensing fees . Doesn't resemble an unreasonable use of government power at all.

I don’t think that’s the argument you think it is. Thought experiment, grab a random USB C cable, now tell me:

1. What speed can you transfer data through it?

2. How much power can it deliver?

3. Can it support video over USB C?

4. Say a random device comes with a USB-A cable on one side and a USB-c on the other. Now take a standard usb c/usb c cable, will it always charge the device?

Also when that same government first wanted to “standardize”. They wanted to standardize on micro-USB.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#209

Post by scarface_74 »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #196
scarface_74 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So instead of working together , the software team would work in isolation and then when they are finished they deliver to the hardware company and keep going back and forth? Yeah that’s going to work out real well. Let’s just look how well it work for Android.

> the software team would work in isolation Only if the hardware company refuses to share info with them, which - as you clearly laid out - is not in their interest.

You really don’t see how that would slow things down compared to the hardware and software company working together?

I bet you also think that a company should set up a DevOps “department” to increase efficiency

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#210

Post by dumpsterdiver »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #190
crote wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely impossible with any hardware made in the last 20 years or so. The problem is that you cannot make a hard distinction between hardware and software. An Intel CPU simply isn't going to run without microcode, and having to get rid of microcode would easily set back chip design by a decade. Even something as trivial as a USB cable isn't pure hardware anymore. It has a programmable eMarker in order to a…

> The problem is that you cannot make a hard distinction between hardware and software. An Intel CPU simply isn't going to run without microcode, and having to get rid of microcode would easily set back chip design by a decade. Yes you can make the distinction, and no it doesn't require getting rid of the microcode: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37731829 Simply put, if the microcode can be updated by the user…

Can you imagine the nightmare alternate universe of waking up to hear that Rowhammer is raging uncontrolled in the world, and the only way to fix it is to either return a data center full of affected products to the manufacturer or pay a specialist (who would probably be booked out for a long time to come) to come onsite?
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