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Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

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Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#191

Post by loup-vaillant »

tbrownaw wrote: post #130
loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

> either they only sell hardware in the EU, or they only sell software. Intel and microsoft would have no problem. Intel has microcode. Microsoft has Xbox which I'd guess would have issues getting game releases if excluded from a decent-sized market. Also. My phone (hardware) came with an OS (software) already installed. As do other pre-assembled computers.

Microcode can be non-configurable.

I'm willing to sacrifice the business model of game consoles.

I hate OEM deals, it just propagates the current monopolies and oligopolies. I'm okay with forcing everyone to buy their phone or laptop separately from the OS.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#192

Post by smoldesu »

scarface_74 wrote: post #120
howinteresting wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally think any company with a >10 billion (2023 US) dollar valuation should be forced to do things that may not directly benefit them but benefit society. Having to publish open specifications for all their proprietary integrations is a pretty easy, relatively low-cost example. How to make this work in practice is a really interesting question. Community and employee representatives on the board would be a goo…

Oh god, talking about design by committee. Why not just cut out the middle man and let the government take it over and come up with “5 year plans”

Design-by-committee doesn't sound half-bad if it can standardize a single serial cable that doesn't have licensing fees. Doesn't resemble an unreasonable use of government power at all.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#193

Post by vetinari »

scarface_74 wrote: post #182
vetinari wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should go even further and check the video playback experience on apple machines, when divx was all the rage and apple had just a sorrenson video 3. And yeah, full-screen playback was a qt pro feature, paid extra.

Or you can go even further back when Microsoft was caught stealing QT code because they couldn’t do video competently themselves and Apple could (circa 1995). And every Mac geek knew how to work around it either via free third party software or just using AppleScript https://osxdaily.com/2007/01/30/play-quicktime-movies-full-s...

Nah, they didn't, when Jobs said someone has stealing his code, he meant that someone did something similar. Like "stealing his ideas".

Also in 90's, there was no applescript support on macos classic qt, and third party players like vlc didn't exist yet either (not that they ever ran on classic). I know, I was mac user back then and I remember.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#194

Post by unix_fan »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #96
unix_fan wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be terrible for specialized hardware, such as assistive technology. Open source software doesn’t really exist for it because there is simply no interest.

We could carve out exceptions for specific niches. Ugly, but could work. Who says the software has to be open? It would be better for sure, but companies may be interested in selling software for assistive technologies. Interest may go up if the barrier to entry lowers. Undocumented hardware is quite the turn off.

You can't really sell software for running a braille display on its own, for example. As for interest going up, I doubt that very much, as linux is still lacking good vision accessibility, such as a screen reader that doesn't brake with every update to the gnome desktop. windows and macOS figured that one out years ago, and the only decent open source screen reader is windows only.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#195

Post by loup-vaillant »

Jtsummers wrote: post #158
loup-vaillant wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not proposing that we split companies. I proposing that no company that sells hardware be allowed to distribute software, and no company that distributes software be allowed to sell hardware. The Apple split is only a consequence of that. As would be the likely end of locked down game consoles, now that I think of it. What I'm hoping to accomplish with this is: reduced or eliminated vendor lock-in, harmonisation…

This is a rather amazing comment, I'm astonished by the bald-faced lie that you open your first paragraph with: > I'm not proposing that we split companies. Also you, only a couple comments up: > As far as I am aware my proposal would only force Apples to split itself in 2: a hardware company that sells top notch hardware (so top notch in fact that even the hardware interfaces are as clean and slick as an iPad's case…

Listen to any pro-gun advocate: the goal is not to kill the bad guy, the goal is to stop the bad guy… though unfortunately sometimes this means reducing their blood pressure to zero.

The law as I propose it would not legally force Apple to split. They would have 3 alternatives: stop selling software, stop selling hardware, or split. They could fire half the company, but we all know what they would actually do. Same deals with banks: enforcing the separation between deposit and investment wouldn't force the banks to split, but we all know that in practice they would.

Understand here that splitting Apple is not my goal. My goal is to separate the activities, in the hope of fostering more competition and personal freedom.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#196

Post by thomastjeffery »

scarface_74 wrote: post #83
thomastjeffery wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wouldn't change at all. The newly separated software company would get appropriate hardware specs and prototypes during the same timeline they do today (as a vertically integrated branch of Apple).

So instead of working together , the software team would work in isolation and then when they are finished they deliver to the hardware company and keep going back and forth? Yeah that’s going to work out real well. Let’s just look how well it work for Android.

> the software team would work in isolation

Only if the hardware company refuses to share info with them, which - as you clearly laid out - is not in their interest.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#197

Post by loup-vaillant »

crote wrote: post #173
loup-vaillant wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say one wants to make hardware made of 3 pieces of hardware that talk to each other. They may need to write firmware to do that. At a first approximation, I would say one of the following should apply: Either the firmware can be modified by the user, or remotely, in which case it should not be shipped. Or it is an implementation detail of the communication between the 3 pieces of hardware, not reasonably modifi…

But it is often both . Just because it is essential for proper operation and therefore an implementation detail, doesn't mean it cannot be updated. Even a device as trivial as a keyboard, mouse, or SSD drive has firmware which can be updated. Shipping them without firmware would be completely ludicrous, and you'd basically buy a fancy brick. Hell, you need to flash firmware onto it in the factory to make future updat…

The prudent manufacturer makes sure that some of the firmware is truly immutable, to prevent bricking the device if some firmware version is botched enough.

I'm not proposing that no hardware ships with firmware. I'm proposing the hardware manufacturer choses: enable updates and don't ship the parts that can be updated, or disable updates entirely.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#198

Post by thomastjeffery »

scarface_74 wrote: post #65
vegetablepotpie wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this idea because it’s incredibly American. If we’re going to go full on free-market, we might as well live up to those principles. There is precedent for this idea, in 1948 the Supreme Court forced the film studios to give up exhibition (theaters) with the paramount decision. This enabled the rise of independent film, and audiences benefited from more choice. If you try to do this legislatively the Apples and…

There are so many flawed analogies here it’s hard to know where to start. How will it make my everyday experience better as an Apple customer without the integration of software and hardware between my Mac, iPads Watch, Airpods and phone? Windows laptops are worse in every vector than MacBooks. No consumer is asking for this. So you want to degrade the user experience for “freedom” by giving the government more power…

How in the world is your everyday experience "better" today as a result of Apple's vertical integration?

Spoiler: it isn't.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#199

Post by michaelmrose »

smoldesu wrote: post #188
ggreer wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

KDE Connect requires both devices to be connected to the same network, which means you have to connect your devices to the same VPN if you're on a wifi network with client isolation (most public wifi). If you're away from wifi, you'll have to configure one of the devices to be an access point and join everything else to that device. Apple's clipboard/handoff/continuity automatically works as long as the devices are w…

For what it's worth, Connect does have a Bluetooth backend that supposedly works: https://invent.kde.org/network/kdeconnect-kde/-/tree/master/... It doesn't seem to be enabled by default though. I'm not totally familiar with the situation, but I'd assume it's a problem with multi-device handling and switching to the best backend. For most people/situations, the Wifi Direct option will be faster and lower-latency.

It also wont magically stop working 30 feet away if you want to use the multimedia remote functionality. Graceful degradation seems like a useful feature but if you aren't careful the result might be flaky

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#200

Post by thomastjeffery »

Someone wrote: post #143
loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

> Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. So, I would go buy a smartphone at a shop, and then buy an OS to run on it at another shop? Or would it be allowed for a third party to integrate the two and sell me a working phone? Also, would “any softwa…

You know, computers that aren't smartphones do exist..

Nearly every non-Apple PC on the planet is sold with Windows preinstalled, yet Microsoft didn't manufacture them.

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