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Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

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191–200 of 635 posts

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#191

With the continued shift to EVs, petrol taxes just don't make sense as a form of taxation to pay for roads. I think we should be shifting entirely to a gross curb weight tax for all vehicles. The fourth power law states that the greater the axle load of a vehicle, the stress on the road caused by the motor vehicle increases in proportion to the fourth power of the axle load. Meaning heavier EVs cough hummer , are doi…

The Ford F150 is the best selling car in the US by a long-shot and it's a gas guzzler. Given that, I don't think consumers care a lot about how much they pay in taxes when deciding on a vehicle to purchase.

I don't think this'd have the incentive that you're suggesting it would unless something else is done, such as increasing the tax overall.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My overall point is that the "last mile" we're just screwed unless we fundamentally redesign our neighborhoods and shape of our cities. Its pretty damn obvious that as the USA is laid out right now, we don't have any good last-mile solutions outside of 100x different people driving to the same store and picking up what they want. And its not like houses are going to pick themselves up and move to a store, and given z…

IIRC there is a push in some areas to switch to e-bikes; while they carry less, you also don’t need a CDL to ride a bicycle and there is a chronic shortage of CDL drivers.

There's no shortage of anything except training and wages/benefits. At some point, companies are going to have to bite the bullet and start training their own employees. The horror!

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My overall point is that the "last mile" we're just screwed unless we fundamentally redesign our neighborhoods and shape of our cities. Its pretty damn obvious that as the USA is laid out right now, we don't have any good last-mile solutions outside of 100x different people driving to the same store and picking up what they want. And its not like houses are going to pick themselves up and move to a store, and given z…

infra is not going to change in the US. Too much individual ownership at stake. For example I care about the environment but not enough to throw away a one million dollar suburban house for it. Basically to fix this problem is essentially to cause current suburban housing to depreciate in value until the property has become essentially worthless which is against much of the populations self interest as many people ow…

>>>Either way, this kind of thing has sort of already happened in Japan.

Can you explain?

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#194
> Indeed, the scale of these emissions is significant. Particulate emissions from tires and brakes, particularly in the PM2.5 and PM10 size ranges, are believed to exceed the mass of tailpipe emissions from modern vehicle fleets, as per a study published in Science of the Total Environment this year.

This simply cannot be true. Tailpipe emissions have more mass than the gasoline that gets burned. A car uses several liters od gasoline per 100km. I am pretty sure no car loses several kilograms of tire or brake matter over 100km.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in the market for a small electric city car and found out that we're not allowed to have small cars in the US. Europe and Asia have really nice small city cars under 2,000lbs but none of them are available here. I believe the smallest car sold in the US is the Mini Cooper around 3,000lbs. I actually ended up with a souped up street legal golf cart and it's worked out well for my purposes of picking up kids and…

The Mitsubishi Mirage is available in the US and comes in at just ~2100lbs, but it really ends up just serving the purpose of showing how huge of a gap there is in the American market. The fact that Mitsubishi can make a 4-door, 40mpg, 2100lbs car that passes US regs on a shoestring sale price shows that other mfgs could but just don't have the incentive to. You have the cancelled Chevy Spark at 2246lbs, the 2-seater…

The Honda Fit, which is very popular, isn't even sold in the US anymore. Curb weight is low 3000s, all of the passenger seats fold down, it parallel parks trivially, and it's fun to drive. It's basically a 90s Civic.

I'm angry about this often, as mine is over fifteen years old. If I had to replace it with a new car, I'd want another Fit. The closest thing on the market is probably a hatchback Civic...and the whole reason for the Fit existing is because international pressure made the Civic too large and heavy for the desirable tax bracket in the Japanese market.

And it's not even small for the Japanese market, because they have the whole kei class, with strong incentives to drive smaller cars. Which is how it should work everywhere: severe tax penalties for larger cars, to promote public safety and fairly pay for the fourth-power law that affects road wear.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#196
post #7

It’s great to bring this problem up. But the focus on EVs is a distraction. > EVs tend to shed around 20 percent more from their tires due to their higher weight and high torque compared to traditional internal combustion engine-powered vehicles. It’s covered in this panel discussion on Fully Charged: https://youtu.be/LeHakmL6eEc?si=ebBAn8RSDhmmLfHI Fleet operators don’t see any significant difference in tire wear. E…

For equivalent sized vehicles, EVs are heavier, simply because current generation batteries still do not match the energy density of fossil fuels. There is even discussions to start using concrete for roads to handle the increased weight of EVs.

FWIW, chemical batteries won't ever match the energy density of fossil fuels.

Of course they don't need to, so it's not really an interesting comparison. The range/mass of the entire drivetrain is probably a reasonable comparison.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#197
post #166

Has anyone here ever lived near a freeway or even moderately busy road? I made the mistake of renting next to the freeway. Noise was perfectly tolerable, but I could not use my back porch, because after just a few weeks, everything had a fine coating of black dust. I could not keep my windows open in the summer. I was certainly breathing this vile shit the entire time I lived there. This doesn't surprise me in the le…

The positive externalities are even more enormous, which is a problem for environmentalists.

>The positive externalities are even more enormous

What do cars specifically positively provide? NOT including the positives that exists due to constructing infrastructure around that mode of transportation (artificial issues).

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#198

I worked on a phd for 4 years looking into this problem indirectly and for a decade at Ohio State they have had working solutions to the tire dust issue but it is IMPOSSIBLE to get funding. A Billion dollar industry and NO ONE cares about cleaning it up if it means increasing costs by 5% or more. It has been WELL KNOWN for 50 years! We are basically aerosolizing carbon in MASSIVE amounts right where we live and work.…

> Goodyear, Firestone and Michelin flat out refuse to fund research or even block innovation

What's in it for them? Keeping bad press about tires out of the public view? Fear of lower profit margins?

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“We” is not nearly as many as you may believe. I would say most people don’t want to give up their car. That’s why people spend so much time maintaining their cars, polishing them, buying nicer ones, etc. Some people want to give up their cars, but you need everyone to want this, and they don’t. A technical solution is more likely to work than a mass social upheaval.

The "we" clearly refers to society at large. (I suspect you read what you wanted to read) > Some people want to give up their cars, but you need everyone to want this, and they don’t This is moving the goal posts, nobody said everyone would want to make s transition and a requirement for this is a novel requirement only now introduced by your response. The example is akin to: 30 people are currently driving to s groc…

If we means society at large that requires a large portion of society if not more than a simple majority. That doesn’t exist for ending the use of automobiles. If the goal is the reduce the impact of automobiles, assumed from the thread being discussed, it’s not sufficient to help those who want to walk to walk to the grocery store. That’s a wonderful thing to do. But to reduce the impact of tire microplastics, the most likely route to actually achieve a reduction isn’t to get people to walk to the store. It’s to address the microplastic debris of tires. Better formulations, better runoff management, mass reduction of cars.

Maybe we can change society fundamentally. Maybe. I posit probably not. But we can definitely mitigate the impact of our cars on the environment and must. The rest is “nice to have.”

I don’t think I ever say anything about 100% of trips done by car implies a lack of desire to less car reliance. Truly, this is reading what you wanted to read, and a clear ascribing of a bone headed intention on my part. But reducing reliance isn’t enough to change the problems meaningfully. As has been noted elsewhere the 5 minute drive to the store doesn’t compare to the 2 hour drive of the 18 wheeler trucks distributing and redistributing the products from farm to store. Nor does it compare to the work commute, nor does it compare to the weekend outing to the mountains, with four or five hours of driving total, 50x or more the trip to the store.

I lived many years in NYC, and I walked to buy groceries. It was good (although as my family grew the logistics of carting that much food in a push cart got tedious to be frank). But even in nyc I found myself increasingly buying things via delivery, especially non perishable items. Public transit takes so long to get from one part of the city to another, often two hours round trip, that I found myself buying anything I needed on Amazon. Which then brought delivery trucks into the picture. Uber and Lyft and taxis were a constant part of life, even with a pretty complete transit system, simply because to get to a specific place not on a major line you had to do multiple transfers and the total commute time ballooned. Then you have to add in how incredibly unpleasant public transit can be - hot trains, insane people attacking people randomly, being pressed back to back for an hour with a huge crowd of strangers, break downs of signaling.

Now I have a car and I live in a place that is walkable, but is adapted to cars better than NYC. I enjoy walking and biking, but I will never live in a car hostile environment again.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#200
post #155
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transit systems are designed around cars because people want to use cars. This idea that it was some kind of a massive conspiracy from the auto manufacturers is just bullshit. Yes, cars are expensive. We can afford cars today. No one wants to get poorer and go back to walking.

The car shaming mindset makes sense if you live somewhere like Japan where transit is clean and fast, and you don't have problematic people who assault other riders and do drugs. As a family man living in a large American west coast city, there is no way I would ever give up my car lifestyle.

Cars are the leading killers of kids in America.
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