Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#71

Post by tgv » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 6:13 PM UTC

uoaei wrote: post #62

tgv wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems inevitable to conclude that learning systems ... generally experience consciousness. I don't think so. There's no reason to assume a nematode or an LLM is conscious. The latter doesn't even have anything to be conscious of. Ages ago, Minksy has half-jokingly said that consciousness is probably a feedback loop. It makes sense, but it does require the learning system to be able to observe itself in sufficien…

> There's no reason to assume a nematode or an LLM is conscious. It has inputs. It need not necessarily understand them -- that is a separate question to that of consciousness. See the note for laypeople. > It's not the hypothesis we know to be true. I don't think this is a best-faith response to my comment. If I was unclear I can clarify: in absence of further evidence it's a good starting place. I don't think I imp…

The best starting point is the one that seems most likely. We've never observed consciousness, not even in people. I (i.e., the first person perspective) can talk to them and get convinced others feel the same, so it's fair to assume most people are conscious (in particular because small children seem to lack this capacity). In higher mammals it's uncertain, and we can't communicate at all with anything else, but observation hasn't revealed much. There is no evidence of consciousness in other animals or dead matter, despite people looking for it. It also wouldn't have any evolutionary advantage for a fly to be conscious, nor does it make neurological sense. A fly's behavior doesn't reveal much thought, how could it ever have a consciousness? Just because it is somewhat capable of learning? It takes us many years to get to the point, and it requires a lot of social interaction, and a lot of understanding. So the starting point is: consciousness in most other species is most likely missing, and certainly in dead matter.

> How is it possible you know this with such certainty? People whose lives and careers begin and end with this question don't have any such knowledge.

It is technically unknown, because there isn't a definition, certainly not an operationalizable one. Assuming consciousness is another physical force makes it fundamentally unknowable. It is the easy way out.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#72

Post by dbsmith83 » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 6:13 PM UTC

nico wrote: post #47

mikhailfranco wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a great insight by Boltzmann, and his intellectual heirs. But that was circa 1877, around 150 years ago. It is not a great insight today. Please keep up.

You mean it’s not a novel insight to you It’s still a great insight, regardless of who is remembered in history for coming up with it first

It was a great insight, but now it is common knowledge

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#73

Post by dbsmith83 » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 6:17 PM UTC

swader999 wrote: post #42

gchamonlive wrote: post #30

I have been imersing myself in this subject and the gist of what I got is that consciousness collapses under the reductionist process currently employed in the scientific method. Moreover, the very framework in which the current scientific work is done might well be just an emergent data structure used by what we understand as consciousness to navigate whatever the objective reality is in a way that is simpler and mo…

You have a good grasp on this. Have you looked at Tom Campbell? He has a separate angle than Hoffman but very similar conclusions. The batshit crazy thing about Tom is that he shows you ways that you can individually experiment and prove through your own experiences the things he's positing. His My Big Toe trilogy goes into all this, but I shudder to recommend it. Tedious slog. If you really want to prove it to yours…

Have you ever conducted a simple experiment to prove you were not just lucid dreaming? It is a pretty easily falsifiable claim

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#74

Post by swader999 » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 6:18 PM UTC

fishtacos wrote: post #63

gchamonlive wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think maybe the only thing separating the guesswork involved in producing things like the amplituhedron is the fact that they are able to reproduce results in space-time that we can understand and verify. However, if this is true that we perceive space and time through the evolution of senses that are bounded by fitness functions unrelated to the real world, then the only verification method could deceive us. Maybe…

Separating this question from the rest of the conversation: Do you think it's plausible we live in a simulated existence? If so, how? If not, why not? (very broad questions, am aware; simply wanted to get an input on your perspective).

I have a hard time thinking that its simulated, like we are stuck inside a computer in Tron. But I do believe what we interact with is not the essence, its only a small part of everything else that underlies, that we just can't sense is there.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#75

Post by nico » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 6:23 PM UTC

mikhailfranco wrote: post #53

nico wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately we will never truly know, as the only way we can experience the universe is through our consciousness, in that sense, from a human perception perspective, the universe and our consciousness are inextricably intertwined and any theory or explanation we try to come up with is just our own subjective observations

No, there is another way (perhaps the only way) to find some objective knowledge - by the interaction of many consciousnesses. This is the scientific method. Comparison of experiences, with agreement, or refutation, can produce more reliable knowledge than any individual. See Popper, Lakatos, et many al that you seem unaware of.

Which you will never be able to prove because we can never experience anything outside of our consciousness

You can speculate all you want and create as many models as you please, yet you can never know what reality is to anyone else but yourself, nor what reality is outside of your own consciousness

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#76

Post by swader999 » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 6:27 PM UTC

dbsmith83 wrote: post #73

swader999 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a good grasp on this. Have you looked at Tom Campbell? He has a separate angle than Hoffman but very similar conclusions. The batshit crazy thing about Tom is that he shows you ways that you can individually experiment and prove through your own experiences the things he's positing. His My Big Toe trilogy goes into all this, but I shudder to recommend it. Tedious slog. If you really want to prove it to yours…

Have you ever conducted a simple experiment to prove you were not just lucid dreaming? It is a pretty easily falsifiable claim

That's something I wonder myself. I need to do a few more, maybe up to fifty before I have enough subjective data to be certain. What is this experiment to prove I'm not lucid dreaming? You can put your fingers on your nostrils and blow through fingers in lucid dream, irl the air stops, but in OBE, you might not have a full body. One time I did, other time I was just like a shadow, half formed. Really weird.

There's a progression I've experienced which I don't think is something a lucid dream is characterized by. Got a hand out, fell out and quickly went back because it scared me. Got out and couldn't see and gave up. Got out and out the front door and that freaked me out. Then finally a half mile down the road.

My next journey I'm going to go farther in my area to places that I've never been and see what they compare to on a fully conscious visit.

One thing that shocked me though was going through my front door. At the time in the OBE I thought this isn't the same front door, particularly the stained glass. Then I went and looked at it in real life after and I realized my OBE recollection was more accurate than my previous knowledge or memory of it.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#77

Post by nico » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 6:28 PM UTC

mikhailfranco wrote: post #56

nico wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I meant is that whatever we experience of the universe (thinking in dualistic terms as us being a separate thing from “the rest of the universe”), then that experience is happening through, or in, our consciousness And sure, we are technically not separate from the universe, we are very much immersed in, and inseparable from it

Are you really Philosophy TrollGPT? That is certainly how your utterances appear. All language games, as Wittgenstein might have said. No more discussion with you, just downvotes, troll.

If you are not open to discussing any ideas except asserting your opposing view of mine, then who’s the troll?

What you are doing is the very behavior that makes HN a toxic place and why so many end up avoiding discussion

You can’t control your emotions regarding an online conversation so you lash out and have a meltdown like a toddler, blindly downvoting someone that won’t agree with you

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#78

Post by Kerb_ » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 6:46 PM UTC

mikhailfranco wrote: post #57

nico wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean it’s not a novel insight to you It’s still a great insight, regardless of who is remembered in history for coming up with it first

[flagged]

Not gonna lie, GPT accusations, especially unsubstantiated GPT accusations, should be automatically flagged. There are better ways to disagree with a user, better ways to report GPT written spam comments, and better ways to shut down a conversation that you don't want to have.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#79

Post by tetrisgm » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 6:50 PM UTC

I went to a talk by John Cleese, of Monty Python. He made a point about a recent thought that he landed through meditation.

He said he believes less and less that consciousness is in the brain. Maybe it's something external, shared, and our brains work more like a camera, and make whatever is out there our own.

It made an impression on me.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#80

Post by Kerb_ » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

mikhailfranco wrote: post #56

nico wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I meant is that whatever we experience of the universe (thinking in dualistic terms as us being a separate thing from “the rest of the universe”), then that experience is happening through, or in, our consciousness And sure, we are technically not separate from the universe, we are very much immersed in, and inseparable from it

Are you really Philosophy TrollGPT? That is certainly how your utterances appear. All language games, as Wittgenstein might have said. No more discussion with you, just downvotes, troll.

Saying it again because I'm seeing it again. GPT accusations, especially unsubstantiated GPT accusations, should be automatically flagged. There are better ways to disagree with a user, better ways to report GPT written spam comments, and better ways to shut down a conversation that you don't want to have. And, on a personal level, it really makes it seem like you don't know what you're talking about when you resort to this type of comment, even if your previous statements held some weight.