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Matrix 2.0: The Future of Matrix

matrix.org

281–283 of 283 posts

Re: Matrix 2.0: The Future of Matrix

#281
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The project is a mess, which is obvious if one follows it. There is only slow progress. Instead of focusing everyone on one thing to do it right, they focus on multiple things that remain half-baked forever, e.g. multiple concurrent implementations like Synapse and Dendrite, Element and Hydrogen, Element and Element X, etc. pp. They seem to have organizational challenges, stemming from technical founders who didn’t k…

The reason historically for multiple concurrent implementations is because we're building a protocol, and multiple implementations dogfoods that - plus the different implementations service different segments. In practice, Hydrogen and Dendrite are currently deprioritised in favour of focusing on polishing Element X and Synapse. And Element Mobile is in security-maintenance mode only in favour of Element X. Meanwhile…

As a very longtime user, I can say that the progress has been noticeable to me, especially in the last year or two.

Having had a look at Element X (Android), it actually feels to me like that responsiveness is pretty much the last thing I was missing.

Oh, and the call bug already mentioned in the thread.

I'm really happy with Element and thankful for all the work you guys put into it.

Re: Matrix 2.0: The Future of Matrix

#282
post #9
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They renamed Riot to Element in the wake of the George Floyd protests in the United States. It's the same code base. Matrix is a protocol. Synapse is the primary server implementation of Matrix written in Python.

(We actually renamed Riot to Element because the nice people at Riot Games sent us a cease & desist :)

I still remember when that happened. I was really bummed because Riot is just such a fun name. Didn't help that that particular company was the reason.

I bet you were even more bummed though.

It's interesting seeing a myth build around your reasons for the name change already, with the blog post still up. Makes me wonder though how native speakers would have felt about the name after the protests.

I'm not a native speaker, so I don't feel the connotations of the name.

Re: Matrix 2.0: The Future of Matrix

#283
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"upset" isn't perhaps the best word, "bitter" would come closer, and not for my sake necessarily but for those who are still new to this. You and I exchanged 1:1 around 8 years ago on MatrixHQ, when this whole thing was still somewhat new but the cracks were already apparent. Then, the room was crumbling, federation wasn't reliable at all, the overall performance for basic use cases was terrible and self hosting on a…

Yup, "bitter" sounds about right. I'd be first to agree that Matrix hasn't evolved as rapidly as it should, and we (specifically me) could and should have been more focused. Building out future-looking projects like P2P Matrix or Low Bandwidth or Third Room has helped inspire folks to build on Matrix, but it's come at the expense of focus on the core spec & implementations. And that's one of the main reasons (besides…

Hi, back after few days. I had quite a lot going on, and the "you sound angry" hint probably meant that I was better-off not responding straight away :)

First of all, thanks for acknowledging the lack of focus of the project. I am happy to read that this is something being addressed, less so that the prime motivator for this is a lack of funds.

To me (and, I guess, to most), something like Matrix, which aims to become the broker of all our messaging needs, has an implied mandate to put reliability and consistency before all else. Your users' relationships, and sometimes, life? can be put at risk because of unreliable message delivery. Chasing new features and niche use-cases before the basics are covered by a sound theory and a stable implementation has always struck me as short-sighted: you can be sure that users burnt by over-promise and marketing hyperboles will never return. Enthusiasts and early-adopters who attempt to embark their circles onto the non-proprietary protocols exactly have one shot at it and a very high bar to pass. Contributors like yourself should also be aware that this "overly-optimistic attitude" insulates yourselves from potential contributors, in particular among the "theory/hard-problems loving" crowds, who are generally more suspicious about the kind or projects they engage with. That same crowd that could come to help with the interminable reliability issues.

> However, whether you like it or not, we fixed it. The federation problems were resolved before the time of Matrix 1.0 back in 2019

> This is demonstrably false, and it's particularly obtuse to be whining about it in the comments on a post on Matrix 2.0

You see, this is the kind of attitude that gives me little hope for the future success and adoption of Matrix amongst the general public. No later than a few days ago, using Element X on the client side, from a New Vector-managed account, sending a message to a(n up to date) federated server took 9 hours. I could top that up with many other issues with threads, spaces, client glitches, … but that's not the point. This is simply unacceptable for something branded as a mature product/protocol on par with the commercial offerings. I am not the only one reporting such issues and their reoccurrence. Every week, people on self-hosting forums give-up on Matrix for this or other reasons. Things are not going nearly as well as you make them to be, and whether you are honest and in denial, or malicious for the sake of protecting your business/career doesn't matter to me. What matters is that there is an end in sight to this and Matrix 2.0 isn't it.

> There are >65k servers on the public network, of which about 2000 are run by Element (New Vector).

I'm curious about the fraction of active users whose account is hosted by a NV-operated server vs the rest (as defined by the active users of servers federating with those). A vast majority of the Matrix accounts I see in the wild are hosted by NV (and I admit that my perception is skewed due to my involvement revolving around the opensource communities).

> I'm sure you're a lovely person, but you come across as a complete asshole here

I am critical of a work of love of yours, to which you dedicated a decade+ of your life, I can relate to the feeling. But for the record, my admiration for your dedication and availability answering messages here is legitimate.

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